1src Forums - CliePlanet Article

ballistic

01-24-2003, 08:51 PM

Geez, I'm sorry I posted this thread. I guess this David Eaton guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

Or for that matter, Ed from Brighthand.com who said, " It's big. Really big. Too big to ride comfortably in my loose fit jeans. If you typically ride around with a handheld and a digital camera, you'll like the NZ90. If you don't, look for something else. You won't be happy." Ed's very respected in my book, so I'll take what he says to heart about the size of the NZ.

Why would Sony use the NZ (now it's flagship) as one of its biggest announcements at CES? Why haven't they released an OS5 T-Series type device with VG, a PDA that a lot of people have been eagerly awaiting since October?

Can people ask these valid questions without getting criticized?

Medcat99

01-24-2003, 08:52 PM

I happen to really like the NZ fat jokes, but I am in agreement about this article. No, it's not for everyone including me, but I applaud Sony for putting out new devices and giving people a choice. If size weren't such an important factor for me, I might consider getting one. Why beat up on Sony for creating more choices in the PDA market? Palm didn't catch half as much hell for putting out the Zire, and I would venture to argue that NO ONE here wants that either. Still, sales for it are good because it caters to a specific user. Bottom line: the best PDA is the one that fits your needs. For me that is the NR70V. I love my machine and couldn't live without it. I'm sure when the NZ comes out, it's users will feel the same.
Still, everyone has their opinion and these forums are open to anyone who wants to share their thoughts. As such, I will be thinking up new jokes about the NZ tonight in my dreams :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

LITTLESIX

01-24-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by ballistic
Geez, I'm sorry I posted this thread. I guess this David Eaton guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

Oh, there's nothing to apologize for. I've scoured a billion places looking for information on the NZ. I believe fully that if I'm going to plunk down that kind of money that I will have done my homework beforehand. I just found this writer - rather superficial.

Originally posted by ballistic
Or for that matter, Ed from Brighthand.com who said, " It's big. Really big. Too big to ride comfortably in my loose fit jeans. If you typically ride around with a handheld and a digital camera, you'll like the NZ90. If you don't, look for something else. You won't be happy." Ed's very respected in my book, so I'll take what he says to heart about the size of the NZ.

Before the big purge, you could have read page after page criticizing (sp) the NX. Now if you look at that forum, it's one of the busiest on here. Why? People speculated on the size and made determinations from a picture. Then they got one in their hands and changed their tune. Will merely picking up a NZ register an automatic convert? Hell no. But I'm willing to speculate that alot of them will go "that's not soooooooo bad."

Just to amuse myself on a particularly boring day at work, I showed pictures of the Nx and the NZ to 25 people; the selection of them being that they had to NOT own a PDA. I didn't want the opinion of anybody that had experience. Based on looks alone - 20 of them went for the NZ because it looked more sturdy, 3 of them went for the NZ because of the colour, and 2 went for the Nx (again for colour).

oneeyesquare

01-24-2003, 09:09 PM

It's not that big. Bigger yes. I made a mockup the other day for kicks. It doesn't feel like a brick at all. I think all the "huge" comments are pointless til you'd had some hands on with it. I expect that a fresh "NZ fat jokes" thread will break out around the time they start showing up in stores. The size "issue" and the lack of positive speculation on this model has become VERY monotonous.... It's a great innovative machine. Sony is innovating and that's a good thing.

LITTLESIX

01-24-2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Medcat99
As such, I will be thinking up new jokes about the NZ tonight in my dreams :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Well, it's a dirty job....... ;)

ballistic

01-24-2003, 09:19 PM

I think you're missing my point about the BIG PICTURE (no pun intended) that this article hints about.

Is Sony moving towards more of a convergence device than a true PDA, or is the NZ only one model, and not the start of a trend?

I think (hope) that the NZ is merely Sony's evolution of the PDA-with a digital camera device. Only time will tell.

Just food for thought. I agree 100% that Sony is truly innovating the Palm platform.

LITTLESIX

01-24-2003, 09:35 PM

To your question:

When you flip the lid and hit the power button, what do you see? A camera with a PDA attached, or a PDA with a camera attached? I see the latter.

Is it the start of a trend? I doubt it. I just think that it's Sony branching out on a different limb rather than uprooting one tree and planting another one in it's place. If they want to truly dominate the market, they'd be dead in the water if they didn't have the broadest range of PDA's possible.

oneeyesquare

01-24-2003, 09:37 PM

I'll take the convergence device... If I wanted a PIM machine I could dust off my M100!!!

ballistic

01-24-2003, 09:41 PM

Follow up on my above post:

Watch this (http://www.cnet.com/video/ces03/clie.html) video, and listen to what Matt Madden (a Senior Sony Rep) is saying. I think this supports my point about Sony's vision for the future of their PDA's. I heard him say twice, "We're redefining the way people are using their handhelds."

That's good if you want a convergence PDA/Digital Camera, but what about everyone else?

That's my main point about the NZ, its release at CES, and the message Sony is putting out.

oneeyesquare

01-24-2003, 09:46 PM

Well, you could buy a Tungsten?!! (I know no virtual graffitti or is that "graffitti2") ;)
Form factor aside,wouldn't you much rather have one small device than 5 or 6?

LITTLESIX

01-24-2003, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by ballistic
Follow up on my above post:

"We're redefining the way people are using their handhelds."

Yeah - but is there any meat to the statement, or is it just a nice tag-line? We won't know til later ;)

ballistic

01-24-2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by oneeyesquare
Well, you could buy a Tungsten?!! (I know no virtual graffitti or is that "graffitti2") ;)
Form factor aside,wouldn't you much rather have one small device than 5 or 6?

I'd much rather have an exceptional PDA that is slim, lightweight, powerful, with long battery life, instead of a larger, heavier PDA with a mediocre digital camera and volatile battery life (5 hours with backlight off, flash will seriously reduce that figure).

Convergence PDA/Digital camera = Jack of all trades, master of none, IMHO. I'm sure a lot of people will find the NZ suits their needs.

rldunn

01-24-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by ballistic
Why would Sony use the NZ (now it's flagship) as one of its biggest announcements at CES? Why haven't they released an OS5 T-Series type device with VG, a PDA that a lot of people have been eagerly awaiting since October? Did you ever think that maybe a T-series with VG is not really feasible? I mean, the T-series as is already has fairly poor battery life, then add that much more screen for the battery to support, and it may not be worth it. I would imagine this is what is taking Sony so long to bring this to market. I remember when only the S300 was available in the US, and Sony made an S500, which was a color version, but only available in Japan. They never brought it to the US because the color screen was so bad that they thought the US would hate it and give them a poor reputation. If they can't do it right, then they'll wait until they can.

I don't want to sound like a big NZ defender, because I really think it's a product that will be appreciated by a small niche. I can't imagine wanting something bigger than an NX and would love something even smaller. Of course, I've also owned both an NR and an NX after saying "I would never want that" :) I think Sony released this at CES because it was the model that was ready. I'm sure there will be a non-clamshell model with VG coming, and probably soon, but you'll just have to be patient. Just be glad you're waiting on Sony and not some other Palm OS company!!

ballistic

01-24-2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by LITTLESIX

Yeah - but is there any meat to the statement, or is it just a nice tag-line? We won't know til later ;)

Finally, someone who sees my point and then poses the question that needs to be answered!:) :) :)

I love a constructive debate when people take the time to think through the questions & points of others, and then compose their replies to further the debate, instead of merely criticizing others.

ballistic

01-24-2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by rldunn
Did you ever think that maybe a T-series with VG is not really feasible?

That's why I posed that question in the first place. I threw a fast ball straight down the middle. Thanks for stepping up to the plate rldunn and hitting it out of the park!

It seems that one of the major weaknesses in the Clie line is battery life. Sony is trying to address this in the NZ with the removeable Lithium-Ion batteries. Can we expect the same thing in all (or most) future Clies?

rldunn

01-24-2003, 10:26 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to see replaceable batteries in all future high-end Clies. We're already seeing it with some of the PPCs, and this gives people maximum flexibility.

Back to the article, I think what the author is assuming is that this is the only direction that Sony is going, meaning that the NZ will be the NX replacement and the NX will be discontinued. Maybe that's true, but to me, it seems like Sony is trying to cover all market niches, but they'll still have devices like the NX, T-, and SJ-series that will appeal to more of a mass audience. I guess time will tell.

ballistic

01-24-2003, 10:49 PM

I think the author was trying to spark a constructive debate about Sony's vision of PDAs, convergence devices, and that pocketability is subjective.

oneeyesquare

01-24-2003, 10:57 PM

I still think he was whining cuz he wasn't getting what he wanted....:rolleyes:
He can vote with his checkbook like the rest of us. I'm worried that the intro a new model 3 months later that twice as feature packed.... Who nows maybe even smaller!!

eric2002

01-25-2003, 12:19 AM

I wonder why on earth the writer of the article cares about the NZ so much, if this person wants a tiny PDA that fits in their shirt pocket, and they only use the camera 5-10% at most, then why not just get a tiny cell phone? There are many cell phones out now that keep dates, play games, and take photos. Or if you want something beefier get an S, or T Sony series PDA. THE NZ IS NOT FOR YOU!!!

The NZ is perfect for someone like myself who uses the camera function about 50-60% of the time, datebook and phonebook about 30% and games 5-10%.
The NZ is what I've been waiting for -a very good camera on a PDA!

Lastly about the size of the NZ, I've been using a Handspring Prism with camera module for the last year and a half. My Prism had the same width, length (with camera attachment), and a fraction of an inch smaller in depth than the NX, and weighed only about 2 ounces lighter with the camera attached. I never complained about the size. Who I ask carries a PDA in their shirt anyways?? I've never seen this, most people such as myself carry thier PDA in their jacket pocket. Anyway, if you don't like the NZ (even though you've never held one or used) then don't get one. Personally I can't wait til they come out, I am getting one for sure!
eric 2002

peterh

01-25-2003, 05:09 AM

Maybe we should tell Sony that for now on, every PDA they make must fit absolutely everybodys needs. Well, if they did that they wouldn't need to make a whole range of Clie's, they could make just 1 device .....

I agree with eric.
I use the Multimedia on my NR much more than I do PIM. I mainly use it for taking pics, listening to music wherever I go, kinoma, reading a book .... so the NZ90 (not the NZ70!!!!!) is the right pda for me in my opinion.
This PDA isn't like the NX's which took over from the NR's, its just meant to be another option for people who have more money than sense :-)

bucalo9

01-25-2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by ballistic
I think the author was trying to spark a constructive debate about Sony's vision of PDAs, convergence devices, and that pocketability is subjective.

I agree, and I found the article simple and ambiguous. I especially thought it odd that he felt the accessory list was satisafactory or "all he wanted". I'm still anitipating with excitment add-on devices for my NX. And I don't think much has yet been offered in the US compared to older model PDA's-all brands.

I believe the purchasing trend in home PC purchases is driven by multimedia and internet browsing, not information managment. Seems practical that Sony would see this as an untapped demand for a protable version of a "something" not yet invented. So what-ever you want to call it, "convergence", or "camera with PDA", there is an attempt to use the available technology with some incremental new technology, to create "it".

This is how big you get, when you use the smallest and most cost effective batteries we have developed-so the innovation is allowing for swopping on the fly. Screens can be bigger, but this is an attempt at just "big enough", or "not to big" to gain a bunch of user advantages. The list goes on...and Sony has to set a date out in the near future to when its gotta be in the stores. So what "it" will be, is frozen in time at that moment, a team goes off to create it, while a new team begins work on the next advance where the technology to bring it to market, within that time frame couldn't be done. It is set for introduction, at a later date. Allot depends to on the timing of other companies products too, like the OS.

Sorry for the ramble, but if I worked for Sony, I'd be doing the same thing. And trying to maximize profits at the same time, and glad I had an incentive bonus at the end of the year too. :D

ballistic

01-25-2003, 11:27 AM

Looks like the NZ has some competition.

Ricoh RDC-i700 (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/I700/I70A.HTM)

Sounds like both devices are marketed for the same target audience. They have similar capabilites and wireless internet connectivity, and the Ricoh is a better camera with higher resolution and optical zoom.

Edit
Oh, I forgot to mention, it uses standard CF cards and PCMCIA for storage, you can use anywireless modems for wireless connectivity anywhere, and it has a tripod mount!

LITTLESIX

01-25-2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by ballistic
Looks like the NZ has some competition.

Ricoh RDC-i700 (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/I700/I70A.HTM)

Sounds like both devices are marketed for the same target audience. They have similar capabilites and wireless internet connectivity, and the Ricoh is a better camera with higher resolution and optical zoom.

Pretty sweet looking. But, for my needs it's too specialized. If I had 1200 bucks laying around I'd buy it to satisfy my techno-lust, thought ;)

ballistic

01-25-2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by LITTLESIX

Pretty sweet looking. But, for my needs it's too specialized. If I had 1200 bucks laying around I'd buy it to satisfy my techno-lust, thought ;)

LITTLESIX, you'll appreciate this owner's review re: LE!

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/read_opinion_text.asp?prodkey=ricoh_rdci700&opinion=4542

LITTLESIX

01-25-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by ballistic

LITTLESIX, you'll appreciate this owner's review re: LE!

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/read_opinion_text.asp?prodkey=ricoh_rdci700&opinion=4542

Review on it - that one and the others were kind of lukewarm weren't they?

The concept alone of it is pretty good and it 'could' have a few LE possibilities. Another time though. I had enough of a selling job getting the boss to subsidize me on the Nx and now the NZ. I had to really put my best foot forward to show him how the NX would produce better in the field than those that didn't have one. That alone got me a financial contribution to the NZ :)

As to the Ricoh - still want one but it's definitely gonna have to wait until I hit the lottery

mashoutposse

01-25-2003, 07:16 PM

Sony's a pretty big company last I heard -- I doubt they have much problems developing multiple PDA models simultaneously. If the NZ's not clicking with you, wait for the new T, NX, or SJ.

EDIT - The Ricoh is $400 more than the NX, yet has a smaller screen, no Bluetooth, has 8MB, and is bigger overall. I'm betting that Sony could make a NX-sized PDA w/ a 3MP and optical zoom for $1200. That would blow away that Ricoh, IMO.

ballistic

01-26-2003, 08:32 AM

I just read this (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/4985418.htm) article, and it also contained the message that Sony 'is trying to change the way people think about handheld computers.' that I mentioned in my posts above.

This time, it came from Keiji Kimura, a top Sony executive that championed the Clie handheld. What Kimura also said is that Sony doesn't want to build bulky handhelds. The article also mentions that some at Sony have admitted that the NZ is more of a showcase of Sony's technological prowess, like a concept car.

I'm breathing a sigh of relief now. The NZ is meant to convey and showcase Sony's vision of 'impossible dream gadgets' and not a trend towards larger handhelds.

Kimura: "Miniaturize, that's Sony's DNA."

I hope this ends the debate (and fat jokes). ;)

firecow

01-26-2003, 10:01 AM

Look I really don't understand what the complaints are about.

it's just an evolution of the platform (PDA). It's what made the desktop a laptop. The PDA market and the platform itself as a PIM is very well established and mature enough now that someone should be takign the step forward. Or else we'll just have the same old thing just repackaged in a new coat every few months.

I applaud Sony for taking the dying Palm OS and making it something people could be excited about again. The NZ is the next step forward but by no means does that mean that the PIM in it's form as we know it today will cease to exist. Just as the desktop is still essential even though the laptop came about and now the Tablet PC's are out...

evolution.