Nova OS & Legacy Palm OS Apps

[Stanfrisco]

I wonder if anyone has approached Palm, Inc. about the possibility of including an emulation chip on the motherboard of their new Nova device(s) that would run the majority of the 30,000+ applications [albeit slower], currently available? Not only would this afford an instant application library for the new device(s), but it would lock in current Palm customers, who don't want to buy all new applications.

[dmitrygr]

You must be new here, and must have missed the big sign when entering:
We, the Palm hereby will do whatever we want to screw ourselves and the customer over. Please submit all your ideas and suggestions to the shredding room and enjoy your new offerings, which slightly differ from our old offerings. We are always happy to hear your thoughts - nothing pleases us more than disregarding them. Also if you already own a device by us, please forget the meaning of the word "support," we have forgotten it already - you should too.

[palmgeek5394]

@dmitrygr: :D I've got to remember that one.
On topic: Nova, if and when it's released, should include a compatibility layer. Or it could end up like Cobalt...

[potter]

A slightly less cynical view of the state of things:

Ever since 5.0, Palm OS has included a compatibility layer. Most applications written to the standard published Palm OS APIs of the time would run without an issue on a Palm OS 5.0 device, even though:
The hardware changed from a 68k to a ARM architecture.
This included changing from a big-endian to a little-endian.
The kernel changed from XXX (I do not remember at the moment) to a custom Palm written kernel.
I would estimate (WAG) about 85% of all the Palm OS applications made the transition to Palm OS 5.X without a hitch. An additional 5 to 10% made the transition with varying levels of effort on the developers parts. The remaining 5 to 10% did not make the transition, either because they used an undocumented and now unsupported feature and/or they were abandon-ware. The most notable sub-class of applications that did not make the Palm OS 5.0 transition (or only made it with major re-write) were the so called HACKS. This sub-class of applications made use of an undocumented (as far a Palm was concerned) feature that allowed an application to hook into the OS.

How has the published Palm OS architecture changed since the Palm OS 4.X/5.0 transition?
Some new APIs entries have been added.
Palm added a compatibility layer to aid application attempting to access the legacy PIM databases (address book, date book, to dos, and memo pad) and map the reads and writes to the Palm enhanced PIM databases (contacts, calendar, tasks, and memos). (Comments however are that this layer is buggy.)
Applications can have parts of themselves implemented as native ARM code.
How is Palm OS going to change from Palm OS 5.X to Nova?
Kernel will change from the custom Palm written kernel to Linux with some Palm modifications.
New API additions.
Ability to write ARM/Linux native applications.
I therefore expect the transition from Palm OS 5.X to Nova to be similar to the Palm OS 4.X to 5.0 transition, possibly better; the vast majority of Palm OS 5.X applications should work fine under Nova. The vast majority of the applications that will have trouble with this transition with be those that use undocumented features. There may be a few APIs that will not be supported which may cause others to have issue. However, I also expect Palm to expand the scope of their PIM compatibility later. Since it is buggy now, it is iffy if this will improve. Therefore I could see applications that access other programs' databases may have additional issues.

Taking off rose-colored glasses ...

The truth is probably somewhere in between the above view and Dmitrygr.

[dmitrygr]

not quite i'd imagine.

nova = tcp/ip stack + webbrowser+web-based services
i do not foresee web-based palmos emulation
plus palm has hinted at lack of compatibility before

[Stanfrisco]

Yep, I'm new here, but I guess you could tell that by the Join Date! I certainly don't have the credentials of most of you guys, but I'm a somewhat well educated enthusiast, who appreciates dry humor. Judging from your reply, I think I'm in the right place ;-). As for the BIG SIGN, I don't think Palm has the corner on that market. Overall, the replies seem to encourage the idea that at least some of the existing Palm OS software will work with NOVA. One can only hope. Thanks for your reply, Stan...

[StoneRyno]

Didn't palm (not palmsource) promise their next OS would be 100% backwards compatable so that all previous palmOS software would run on the new OS. If that has changed it is a big mistake for them. Current customers aren't going to buy a new device if it means buying all of the software they use all over again. Plus that means developers have to build their software for yet another OS which may even mean many apps won't ever see the light of day unless it's a big company. Even then who knows just look at some of the really big ones are just now releasing stuff on BB OS which has been out just as long as other platforms I believe.

[Balentius]

Didn't palm (not palmsource) promise their next OS would be 100% backwards compatable so that all previous palmOS software would run on the new OS.

I highly doubt it. Every time they've talked about it, one of the main "features" is that it is based on Linux, so there will 'instantly' be 'thousands' of applications that will run on it...

Given that they have been theoretically working on this for several years, it is always possible that they will have a PalmOS compatibility layer, but I don't expect 100% compatibility.

Not that it's going to matter if they wait too much longer. UMPCs are approaching, and there are persistant rumors of a Mac tablet/handheld. If Palm waits much later than 1st half of 2009 (what they said at one point), the market is going to ignore them unless they come out with something spectacular. (Note that I don't consider the Centro to be "spectacular", considering the recent news that it is just becoming profitable...)

[robitaille88]

I highly doubt it. Every time they've talked about it, one of the main "features" is that it is based on Linux, so there will 'instantly' be 'thousands' of applications that will run on it...

Given that they have been theoretically working on this for several years, it is always possible that they will have a PalmOS compatibility layer, but I don't expect 100% compatibility.

Not that it's going to matter if they wait too much longer. UMPCs are approaching, and there are persistant rumors of a Mac tablet/handheld. If Palm waits much later than 1st half of 2009 (what they said at one point), the market is going to ignore them unless they come out with something spectacular. (Note that I don't consider the Centro to be "spectacular", considering the recent news that it is just becoming profitable...)
Rumors are the first ALP phone with be out by late '08 for the Orange UK network. An access employee commented they've got 85% compatibility with existing PalmOS applications

[Josser]

Palm also stated;
Centro will run Garnet for years to come and be targeted at consumers
Nova will run the new Prosumer line of phones/devices
Treo will all be running WinMob and target Professional users.

[Balentius]

Rumors are the first ALP phone with be out by late '08 for the Orange UK network. An access employee commented they've got 85% compatibility with existing PalmOS applications

...to which I have to add that I had forgotten about the virtual OS they have for the Nokia N810. Argh... I hate it when I forget news! :(

However, the reply from Josser actually helps my point. One OS for "consumers", one OS for "prosumers", and Windows Mobile for "Professional" users. That implies that Palm isn't that confident in the new OS...

(That's going to be the hard part - keeping track of announcements from both Palm and Access, and separating the two)

[StoneRyno]

I don't think palm is using access (palmsource) for OS development. Since they are coding NOVA themselves. Perhaps things would be different had palm not split off OS development to a separate entity. Heck has access (palmsource) done anything at all in the last 5+ years? Drivers and other such needed updates to all current palm OS devices are in dire need. I can't even pair my T5 with any current model cell phones let alone my BB curve to do anything. I really hope by 1Q2009 there is a suitable device from palm that provides what I need and want. Otherwise I may be stuck with what I got and have to make it work.

[robitaille88]

I don't think palm is using access (palmsource) for OS development.
No, they haven't. Palm bought GargetOS rights and all they current smartphones out there are running Palm Inc.-modded GarnetOS

Heck has access (palmsource) done anything at all in the last 5+ years?
Heck yes. GarnetVM for Nokia N8xx devices, plus a complete OS, ALP, one evolution of the GarnetOS (it even has a compatibility layer for GarnetOS applications). ALP was given hands-on testing at various linux conferences like 2 years ago. The process of getting carriers to take a new OS generally takes about that long and the first ALP phone is expected by the end of this year. Not to mention Access has continued development of NetFront for Windows Mobile PPCs and has made various linux-related ventures.

Drivers and other such needed updates to all current palm OS devices are in dire need. I can't even pair my T5 with any current model cell phones let alone my BB curve to do anything.
If Palm wants updated software from Accesss, all they need to do if order some. Access has publicly responded to various people wanting an upgraded GarnetOS NetFront by saying they would if Palm Inc. would order it. Palm Inc. seems more content with self modifying and patching the OS and its software.

[StoneRyno]

So really access has done a lot of stuff that hasn't seen the light of day to the consumer only stuff waiting for someone to use it. That basically means to me they've done nothing. After all what good is making stuff if it never gets put on PDAs or any devices for that matter. So in the last 5+ years have there been any PDAs come out with an OS from access (palmsource) other than the E2, TX, and Z22 which all run 5.4.

What has me confused is if access is the one that has to update 5.4 and older versions of the OS with drivers etc, why does palm have to ask them to in order for them to do so? Why don't they just do it? Does MS wait for PC manufacturers to say hey so and so support needs to be added or so and so thing needs to be updated? No they go right ahead and take care of it because they made the OS not the manufacturers. Looks to me like both palm and access don't give a rip about bringing things up to date.

Sorry to be blowing steam. Its just not having a handheld to suit me needs and wants is getting annoying. I'm stuck making due with what I have since I can't find anything to better fit. I rather had expected in the last 5 years something totally mind blowing to come from palm and/or access but anyways I guess the wait continues.

[robitaille88]

So really access has done a lot of stuff that hasn't seen the light of day to the consumer only stuff waiting for someone to use it. That basically means to me they've done nothing.
More accurately, Cell Phone Carriers haven't done anything.

So in the last 5+ years have there been any PDAs come out with an OS from access (palmsource) other than the E2, TX, and Z22 which all run 5.4.
GSPDA had the Xplore devices, including the popular Xplore M70, but no longer actively sell their GarnetOS lineup. Zodiac, Samsung, Sony, and pretty well all other companies have ceased usage of the GarnetOS. And Access only made the base GarnetOS software, Palm Inc. is the one who updated to 5.4.9 (as far as I know), not Access.

What has me confused is if access is the one that has to update 5.4 and older versions of the OS with drivers etc, why does palm have to ask them to in order for them to do so? Why don't they just do it? Does MS wait for PC manufacturers to say hey so and so support needs to be added or so and so thing needs to be updated? No they go right ahead and take care of it because they made the OS not the manufacturers. Looks to me like both palm and access don't give a rip about bringing things up to date.
Well first off, Palm Inc., as far as I know, HAVEN'T been getting software upgrades from Access. Palm Inc. recieved the GargetOS license and has been modifying on their own, not Access. OS 5.4.9 is called FrankenGarnet for a reason, lol, it just keeps getting modified and modified.

It's like Blazer. Blazer was built internally off of NetFront several years ago. Ever since then Palm Inc. has continued updating Blazer, adding new things, modifying the source code, etc.. Meanwhile, Access continued their development of NetFront, which is now at version 3.5. Palm Inc. could license the current NetFront for GarnetOS, but they don't want to have to and would rather continue modifying Blazer themselves, limiting their outsourced materials.

Sorry to be blowing steam. Its just not having a handheld to suit me needs and wants is getting annoying. I'm stuck making due with what I have since I can't find anything to better fit. I rather had expected in the last 5 years something totally mind blowing to come from palm and/or access but anyways I guess the wait continues.
I completely agree. I'm currently with my Palm TX and Motorola Krzr. It's not a perfect combo, but it works. Now if only Palm inc. would release NOVA with Garnet compatibility (somewhat unlikely), or the cell phone carriers push ALP out, then it would only be the hardware decisions that could ruin the device :p

[robitaille88]

Even more bad news for ALP: First And Only Access Linux Smartphone Cancelled (http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=14211)

[Balentius]

Even more bad news for ALP: First And Only Access Linux Smartphone Cancelled (http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=14211)

Part of the "fun" of being a software-only company developing an OS... Especially in the cell phone market - if your product isn't good, there is plenty of alternatives. That is bad news for ALP, since it implies that there were real issues with it.

[Dick Tracy]

Probably were the same issues that derailed Cobalt.

[StoneRyno]

Wasn't cobalt just a minor update of garnet? And viewed as a pointless to get?

[Josser]

Wasn't cobalt just a minor update of garnet? And viewed as a pointless to get?
No, Cobalt was a completely new OS, from scratch. It had an emulator layer for backward compatibility.

[StoneRyno]

I guess that explains why I thought it was just a minor update. Was there ever any details on what was new to the OS? It seemed like the thought of it came and went and so I never gave it any thought since I had 1st heard it mentioned.

[CliePet]

You may want to check the archives. At the time, there was much discussion of Cobalt on this BBS. Mostly speculation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_OS#Palm_OS_Cobalt

> Was there ever any details on what was new to the OS?
Cobalt was never released on a device, but there were technology preview releases, whitepapers, pre-release SDKS, and a Windows based Simulator. You can find the PC simulator on the Web, and it has a few newer gizmos, but not significantly better than "Garnet" IMHO.

It was not Linux but an evolution of the proprietary ARM kernel used for years.
IMHO the pre-release looked very similar to the underlying Palm OS 5.x ARM operating system, which can be accessed today using low level ARM hacks. The 68K emulator ("PACE") on all modern Palm 5.x devices runs on top of this proprietary ARM kernel. Undocumented but very powerful.
----
Also a semi-related topic, search for the defunct Palm Foleo. Based on a Linux variant.
The first planned release ignored legacy (68K) emulation. Not surprisingly, the Foleo also died a (fortunately) prematurely death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Foleo