an idea for a new ms import

[muldermx]

I dont know, maybe there are some great programers here...

I thought that maybe one could write an alternative ms import app that really turns the cllie into a mass storage device - without the need to install drivers.

That way the clie with MS turns into a portable disc on key thing...

It would be great wihout all the drivers and patches.

what do u ppl think?...

[hherbzilla]

I'm not clear on your idea.

If you're talking about making it a storage device like those little USB drives... well, they need drivers, but they're usually built into the OS.

Along those lines, I suppose it would be nice if you could "plug and play" your PDA with ANY computer. It doesn't require much more than the PDA manufacturers working with Microsoft and/or with the PC manufacturers to ensure the drivers are included in the standard software image. The main problem is the speed at which new devices are released and may require new or updated drivers.

[n2ifp]

I don't know, MS Import works fine for me. I also have a plethora of MS drives and card readers :).

[muldermx]

what i mean is to slightly change ms import so instead of sending a peg mass storage signal that needs special drivers to represent itself as a generic mass storage drive - thus not needing any drivers with PC's above win2000 and macs.
This isnt good for synchronisation - only to file transfer. I have a muvi mp3 player that works that way. its great.

[Unregistered]

i don't get it. what is your idea?

[yorrick]

Not really worth the effort on converting your PDA into a mass storage device. The main problem is the hardware :
(1) MS transfer is painfully slow,
(2) Limited storage space (128Mb is laughable!) and
(3) you need a converter to change from the base of the PDA to a USB. The cost of this is not worth it.

From my experience of MSImport on the CLIE device, it is a "plug and pray" compatible device that doesn't need drivers - just like USB key drives.

If anything, I would suggest people to look for a proper USB keydrive (they are now reasonably cheap) or a USB 2.5" (laptop) harddisk drive case - this would easily get 5Gb on a second hand drive.

Sorry to blow your idea out of the water...

[muldermx]

u guys didnt understand - all i want is the ms import not to need a driver so u can transfer files from other computers as well without the need to install drivers...

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by muldermx
u guys didnt understand - all i want is the ms import not to need a driver so u can transfer files from other computers as well without the need to install drivers...

Nah, it is you who does not understand.

You dont seems to know what a driver is.

The driver communicates with the MS Import app on your clie. Sending data back and forth. This is what the driver does.

You cant do this without a driver.

Then the question is, can this driver be implemented directly in the OS ( Windows ) so you dont need to install it?

No. Because of two reason.

1. The drivers depend on USBPort.dll which changes all the time.

2. Microsoft will probably not include anything more in Windows that will make it easier to use PALM handhelds. Microsoft want us to use PPC....

[muldermx]

again - its not what i mean dear "unregistered" (nice name by the way..)

there is a generic windows 2000/xp driver "USB mass storage device"
That is included in the operating systems. older OS's need install it.

A lot of new devices use the benefit of this windows included driver to enable their devices to be pluged, played, and work without the need of driver installation.

Such a device is the Creative Nomad Muvo MP3 player.. all the disks on key, and external HD's.

When these are connected they are automatically recognised as a hard disk - sound familiar? cause thats exactly what the Clie+ ms import does.

The only difference is that for some reason Sony chose to work with its own driver rather than the OS included one. Adding us the hassle of installing a driver. adding noting in usability.

[jaydisc]

muldermx, yes, you are right, many didn't understand, and yes, it's a great idea! Why it isn't possible? I'm not sure, but I have a theory.

My Sony still and my Sony vid cam's work without drivers, and this aids my theory.

Every USB device has a chip that announces what it is to the computer. What class, what ID, etc., etc. Palm's are one of the few if only devices on the market (actually Clie's), that have to announce themselves as two completely different devices at different times. I suspect this would require a funky USB chip. Quite interestingly, I've had my USB chip fail on my former T615 twice, and both times, MSImport would work, but HotSyncing and the Audio Adapter wouldn't. This makes me think that there's some bizarre hardware inside to accomplish all this.

I think if it was possible without intense difficulty, it would be done, as nearly every other Sony device is supported by the generic profile.

[muldermx]

moreover, some older Mp3 players that needed drivers got a rom update and since then dont need driver installation

[Chanbingo]

Yep, I've had had enough with MSImport. The main problem is whenever you want it, you have to manually RUN it from the palm.

If there is a way that Windows (Mac too) can see the MS in the Palm as a External Drive our problem is solved. The problem is the Palm OS. It doesn't represent a MS card as a storage divice to the outside world, instead it talks to the PC trough various conduites and get whatever the data across. That is some good old technology though it doesn't fit in this "Plug 'N Play" era.

As long as this is OK for HotSync but not for real file transfers. So waht Palm OS (Palm Inc, Do you hear me!) should do is make available MS and SD cards inserted to a Palm as a USB Drive to the outside world.

If they come up with a common API for that, All the conduite maker too can make use of it like normal file transfer protocals.

I DO NOT KNOW much about these stuff. If there is a need, there should be a way..

Anyone....?

Rgds,
Chan

[Bionic Antboy]

Hmmm...

I one wanted to be able to use their clie in this way, wouldn't it be easy enough to keep the driver on a web-based mail site, or FTP or web site, then download it when needed?

For example, I wanted to use MS Import on my friend's machine when I visited, I already have the driver (well MS Export) accessible on my private ftp site (only accessible by me). Then I just install the driver, and away we go. Of course, if the computer you're using isn't connected, then you'e SOL, but a computer not connected is in the minority now, isn't it?

The second time I did it, I was able to just install the USB drivers ripped from the install on my own machine, and it took easily enough on my sister's machine.

I agree that it would be cool if one didn't have to go through this step, but I've done it, and it worked out fine.

Just a workaround, for those who would like to know.

I also don't think that this would violate any licensing agreement, as the software being installed only serves a purpose when one connects a clie to the machine, and since every Clie comes with the software, there is an interdependance of soft/hardware.

[Unregistered]

no, you don't understand!

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by muldermx
again - its not what i mean dear "unregistered" (nice name by the way..)

there is a generic windows 2000/xp driver "USB mass storage device"
That is included in the operating systems. older OS's need install it.

A lot of new devices use the benefit of this windows included driver to enable their devices to be pluged, played, and work without the need of driver installation.

Such a device is the Creative Nomad Muvo MP3 player.. all the disks on key, and external HD's.

When these are connected they are automatically recognised as a hard disk - sound familiar? cause thats exactly what the Clie+ ms import does.

The only difference is that for some reason Sony chose to work with its own driver rather than the OS included one. Adding us the hassle of installing a driver. adding noting in usability.

*sigh* yes I understood completely what you meant, but you did obviously not understand what I wrote.

As a developer who have written a USB driver for my app I know what I am talking about.

What you are missing is that the MS import can not be used with a "generic driver" bc it is only simulating a mass storage device. It is not a real one. Each time you open a new folder etc on your pc the Palm app reads data from the memory stick and sends it out the usb port. I probably lost you at the first sentence, but believe me when I say this can not be done. =)

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by muldermx
again - its not what i mean dear "unregistered" (nice name by the way..)

there is a generic windows 2000/xp driver "USB mass storage device"
That is included in the operating systems. older OS's need install it.

A lot of new devices use the benefit of this windows included driver to enable their devices to be pluged, played, and work without the need of driver installation.

Such a device is the Creative Nomad Muvo MP3 player.. all the disks on key, and external HD's.

When these are connected they are automatically recognised as a hard disk - sound familiar? cause thats exactly what the Clie+ ms import does.

The only difference is that for some reason Sony chose to work with its own driver rather than the OS included one. Adding us the hassle of installing a driver. adding noting in usability.

*sigh* yes I understood completely what you meant, but you did obviously not understand what I wrote.

As a developer who have written a USB driver for my app I know what I am talking about.

What you are missing is that the MS import can not be used with a "generic driver" bc it is only simulating a mass storage device. It is not a real one. Each time you open a new folder etc on your pc the Palm app reads data from the memory stick and sends it out the usb port. I probably lost you at the first sentence, but believe me when I say this can not be done. =)

[Alejandrico]

What happend if a Clie running MS Import is connected to a computer that doesn't have MS Export installed?
I remember my computer seing a new hardware but I canceled the generic driver the OS was offering me to follow the Documented procedure installing MS Export

Probably I should try it. eh!

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by Alejandrico
What happend if a Clie running MS Import is connected to a computer that doesn't have MS Export installed?
I remember my computer seing a new hardware but I canceled the generic driver the OS was offering me to follow the Documented procedure installing MS Export

Probably I should try it. eh!

It won't work without the MS SCSI driver. I guess what unregistered is trying to say, is that a little knowledge is dangerous :D!

[Chanbingo]

I just want the both ends (PC and the CLIE) to see each other as external drive without ever bothering me to run MSImport or install MSExport on the PC.

If it can not be done like some that so called developer says, Forget it.

[Unregistered]

you still don't understand. it cannot be done at all. please refrain from thinking about this again.

[Unregistered]

Hey, I'm a newbie Palm user. I have a Palm Zire 71, not a Clie, but a Google search turned up this thread as the only likely result.


Does anyone know of a quick download to Palms that would allow "drag and drop" downloading to the SD card that it uses?

Here is the situation.

I use the Zire 71, and try to get as much use out of the SD card slot as I can. Not only do I use the SD card in the Zire itself, I also frequently take it out of the zire to put into a Lexar Jumpdrive Trio, and use it on the side as a USB drive for computer-to-computer transfer, and for computer-to-Palm transfer of various files......Office docs that I'm working on, JPEGS, MP3's and other files. When I want to put computer files onto the SD card, I have it plugged in thru the Jumpdrive Trio. It works fine, I can drag-and drop files, even when I'm working from other computers that I don't have Palm Desktop installed on. It occurs to me that, with the proper software, it might be possible to have the computer recognize the Palm(or more specifically, the SD card inside the Palm) as a "generic USB mass storage device", and download files, "drag and drop", whatever, directly to the SD card that is in the Palm's card slot.

I don't need to be able to access the Palm's onboard RAM, or make changes to it. I can wait until I get home and use the Hotsync function on my computer to do this.

I bring the Palm, the SD card and the Jumpdrive Trio around with me everywhere. Aside from a cellphone, these seem to be the only electronics equipment that I always have at hand. I use the Jumpdrive on multiple computers, around university campuses, and regularly upload/download from/to it, exchanging files between computers at school, work and home, and also between computer and Palm. Many of the computers that I use are public or work computers that I cannot put my Palm Desktop software on. It would be great if I could add that drag and drop capability to my Palm (thru a portable USB hotsync cord).

I don't have advanced computer knowledge and will readily admit that I don't understand the technical issues involved. Can anyone offer a solution, or failing that, a "Dummies" explanation of why it wouldn't work?

Thanks much

[zipslack]

That is the best solution for what you want. I plan on getting one myself. There are other USB drives on the market besides the one listed that you can use with MS or SD. You pop your MS out of the Clie, put it in the USB drive housing and insert it in the computer USB. It automatically registers as a hard drive. Copy your files around and then disconnect it. Pop out the MS and put it back in the Clie. Keep the USB drive on your keyring for convenience.

One added benefit is that the drive itself is not very expensive, so you don't pay extra for built-in memory that can't be upgraded. If you need more storage, buy a bigger MS to use with it, or use multiple sticks.

Here's a link with pics at $17.99 for the drive

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=525453&sku=L61-3336%20P

BTW, if you know your way around Linux, you can get self-booting mini-cd or even floppies that will let your boot a computer with a small Linux distro (no install) and you can then mount your Clie without worrying about special drivers - they're already on the cd/floppy. You can still get to your Windows or Mac drives in order to copy files using MSimport.

[Cyker]

muldermx: I agree that would be an awesome idea :D

I can already do this in Linux, but have always wondered whether it'd be possible to write an app to do it on palm/clie.

I haven't dug around the hardware much, so I don't know how much control the Clie would have of the USB port.

If the port control is very basic or even hard-wired, then as our arrogant condescending Unregistered friend says, the Clie won't be capable of emulating a USB Mass Storage device.

However, I had thought the CPU had quite a bit of control over the port, given that you can already do HotSync, Serial Emulation and MSImport through it.
If this is actually CPU controlled as opposed to some weird IC's then then a 100% USB Mass Storage-compliant proggy should be very possible.

SoftTick make a similar thing for non-Clies called CardExport (Lets face it, MSImport was just sheer genius - I bet Palm wish they'd thought of that :P), but it requires a completely different driver on the Windows side, and also doesn't work on Clies - The fact that they didn't make their stuff work with native USB Mass Storage drivers doesn't bode well, unless they were just being lazy and figured it'd be easier to write their own driver :D

But the fact that there are at least 3 different drivers (T615, T665 and CardExport), probably more (NV, NX, NZ, UX....), for accessing VFS via a PalmOS PDA is what annoys me the most about the lack of standardised driver.