Do warez make developers less likely to develop for the Clie?

[ayasin]

The Effect Of Warez on Innovation and the Consumer

Warez (illegal copies of software that have been “patched” to bypass registration) make it less likely that innovative and cool software will be developed for the Clie and actually for Palm in general. There are a lot of innovative programs for PalmOS already, but if we could get a handle on the warez issue, I believe small developers would be much more inclined to write software. They hurt the consumer by preventing these applications from reaching the market as well as by crippling applications that do reach the market.

Some would argue that warez has been around since the dawn of software mass marketing and that it’s just built into the cost. This may be true for large firms but unlike the Microsofts and the Oracles of the world small PDA development firms have low revenue streams and therefore are very hard hit by piracy. In a very small company 2 to 6 months of manpower focused on development with no revenue to back up salaries and expenses is huge. This money is recouped when the software is sold to consumers; but not if it’s rampantly pirated. This is even truer of games in which case the market is extremely speculative and the return is very hit or miss. In order to prevent piracy some companies go to extreme lengths. This hurts not only the companies that do this but in the end it also hurts the consumer. At the very least it makes it harder to register a piece of software and in some cases harder to use it. Also it creates a disincentive for companies providing “shareware” versions of their applications. Some of these companies resort to “crippleware”, but again the consumer is hurt here by not being able to fully test the app before they shell out money for it.

Still others argue that all applications should be free and open source (of course if their boss stiffed them on their check they’d be hopping mad, but somehow that’s different). There are a lot of free applications and a few applications developed by the open source community, but by in large the vast majority of apps are developed by people looking to make a few bucks for their effort. It’s my experience that the vast majority of these people who say “Hey applications should all be open source and free!” are consumers rather than producers of such applications. Also open source applications don’t innovate; they follow. It’s much harder (and significantly more costly) to discover something than to copy it. Innovation is done, by in large, for profit. Our founding fathers (well in America) recognized this and set up the patent office. Whatever you may think of it’s state today, it’s purpose was simply to guarantee that people who innovate are allowed to reap the benefits of their innovation. I’m not saying that great software hasn’t come out of open source. I’m saying that open source didn’t come up with the ideas in the software; they essentially reverse engineered them. There are a few examples of incremental improvements, but none of radical innovation. A warez user may say “Hey, I’m not selling the software”, but that’s not the issue. The warez user is gaining the benefit of the software without providing the developer of the software with their just compensation thereby denying the developer one of the key benefits of their efforts.

In the end, warez hurts everyone. Companies lose revenue that they could use to improve their products or make new ones. The honest consumer pays higher prices for software. Even the warez user loses because they hurt the company whose software they stole and now won’t get a better version as one won’t be written.

[Unregistered]

I'd say that it's to be expected, but developers certainly wouldn't "not care" about it.

[xyeta]

Given the choices, I couldn't vote. My opinion is this: When lock pickers began to appear in public domain, lock manufacturers made better locks to secure your house. When car thieves began using 'slim jims' to steal cars, auto manufacturers made better door locks. While some cars are relatively easy to hotwire and steal, better auto manufacturers have developed better key/ignition systems..... get the point?

While I am not saying that 'weakly secured' software deserves to be stolen, I think that if it were a big financial impact for software companies, they would make better software (which could not be patched).

[Macy]

happens everywhere, including music cds. warez has been around a lot longer than pda's. fake channel and rolex watches. could be considered warez. copy dvds and windows xp. i think its like credit card fraud - big developers built it into pricing. the question is what happens to smaller developers, of which pda coders are many.

[elo]

I'm a musician who creates great music for a niche audience. Piracy has greatly hurt my income, and I think that is analogous to the warez issue. Because of piracy (and there are ways for me to learn how widespread it is, relative to actual sales), I am definitely less inclined to record.

elo

[TechnoCat]

The poll is badly phrased. I feel like it's asking...
Do you beat your wife?
No, I stopped beating her last week
Yes, she deserves it

A more reasonable poll would include the option that Warez are bad but do not overly affect the Palm. I believe that to be the case. Warez are evil. But as platforms go, they are least common on the Palm. And I'm not some kewl kid saying this, I'm a professional developer with two decades of serious commercial work under my belt.

The real disincentive to work on the Clie/Palm isn't warez; it's a tiny market with very low pricing. PC products sell for more money and have a larger potential base than Palm products. Profit is a price-and-volume game, and I'm not sure the volume allows the low price to create profit.

[hherbzilla]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
...The real disincentive to work on the Clie/Palm isn't warez; it's a tiny market with very low pricing... Good point.

I agree that warez is bad but it's impact on developers is probably insignificant in the scheme of things.

Has anyone seen a factual analysis of the problem? How many thousands (tens of thousands?) of Palm apps are there? What % is available as warez?

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by hherbzilla
Has anyone seen a factual analysis of the problem? How many thousands (tens of thousands?) of Palm apps are there? What % is available as warez?
One of the problems is that such a number is impossible to agree on. With music (CDs), RIAA decided that every swapped file equalled a lost sale, despite the lack of discretionary funds by the swappers and despite the fact that, years earlier, the same types were swapping via cassette tape! With CDs, the fact that a new CD of, say, Cher or Aerosmith is $17.99 but a new concert DVD with 110 minutes instead of 64 minutes comes out on sale for $14.99 just might have something to do with it.

Eons ago I worked at a software company that was simultaneously the #2 pirated software (after WordStar, which gives you a good sense of how many eons ago) and very profitably wiping up the niche. Piracy is bad, but it doesn't necessarily come directly from sales; the typical warez swapper isn't, if the profiles are to believed, a businessman, nor the owner of a $500 Clie.

[xyeta]

Originally posted by TechnoCat

the typical warez swapper isn't, if the profiles are to believed, a businessman, nor the owner of a $500 Clie.

What is the typical warez user profile? While I agree that warez are morally wrong, you may be surprised to find that that I have encountered many, many users seeking a cracked/patched version of, get this, the Christian Bible!

I think warez users are just like everyone else..... looking for a free lunch. Only those with impeccable moral fibre (or the terminally uncurious) are not tempted by the 'dark side' of warez.

I also think most of the people who create software patches are just thrill seekers..... doing it because they can, not because there is some underground institutional interest in crippling the software industry.

ditto with hackers. They break into networks and systems BECAUSE THEY CAN.... lock your system upo tight, and they will prey on weaker systems.

There is also a big anti-micorosoft-monoply contingent, who is annoyed by the security lapses in MSproducts, and exploit them.

While it is never ok to steal a car, I feel sorry for the person who locks their car up, uses anti-theft devices, parks in a well lit area, etc. However, those who leave their keys in the ignition, I feel less sorry for.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by xyeta
What is the typical warez user profile? While I agree that warez are morally wrong, you may be surprised to find that that I have encountered many, many users seeking a cracked/patched version of, get this, the Christian Bible!
That's pretty sick! I might be a few years out of date, but it used to be single males under the age of 25, typically students or living at home. This was believed to be the vast majority of it. And those same folk don't have the money to buy much of anything.

There is also a big anti-micorosoft-monoply contingent, who is annoyed by the security lapses in MSproducts, and exploit them.I used to be annoyed by Microsoft, but then I realized it's because of Microsoft that I make a decent living, at least in a good year. Fixing Microsoft flaws and omissions is a growth industry! :D

[rldunn]

Originally posted by xyeta
What is the typical warez user profile? While I agree that warez are morally wrong, you may be surprised to find that that I have encountered many, many users seeking a cracked/patched version of, get this, the Christian Bible!That's interesting and reminds me of something that CESD, developer of DB5, said on his Yahoo group one time. He's written some stuff into his code so that cracked versions have a bug that randomly pop up. Then he gets people making support requests to fix the bug, and he tells them if they buy a registered copy, they don't see it, and of course, never hears from them again. Well, one day he mentioned that one of the people reporting this bug was a Catholic priest, and also a doctor, lawyer, etc. But in general, I bet the profile that TechnoCat suggested is correct.

As for the thread topic, I do think warez hurts us all, either by reduced development or higher prices for those that actually purchase the software. It's amazing how many people think it's OK or even how many download when they know it's wrong. Maybe it's because many of those doing it are from the MP3 generation and don't think anything of downloading stuff from the internet, whether it's approved or not.

The cassette tape analogy is a good one, and practically everyone I knew copied tapes and CDs onto cassettes and I never heard anyone talking about it being wrong. But at least with cassettes, there was a hit in quality, and if you had the money, you definitely wanted the original. With MP3s and warez, you get the same quality material, so I think there's less of an incentive to ever buy the real thing.

[Molerat]

Are we forgetting the open source community?

[insert GNU philosophy here]

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Molerat
Are we forgetting the open source community?
I'm not (forgetting). I'm a member of the Plucker team (contributed code to the Python parser and to the Windows Desktop (C++)), plus the creator of the Plucker Data import/export tool at http://plrkdata.sourceforge.net (GNU, of course), and the Java-based PicturePager digital photo gallery creator/uploader at http://pictpage.sourceforge.net (also GNU, with Version 2 Beta 1 released today!)

<end of plug! :cool: >

[ayasin]

Originally posted by Molerat
Are we forgetting the open source community?

[insert GNU philosophy here]

No, I mentioned open source in my original post. GNU's philosophy though definately does _not_ advocate cracking or pirating software. It's a statement of their mission and their personal belif that software should be free. They live that belif by producing software and giving it away...they don't do so by cracking the software of others.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
The real disincentive to work on the Clie/Palm isn't warez; it's a tiny market with very low pricing. PC products sell for more money and have a larger potential base than Palm products. Profit is a price-and-volume game, and I'm not sure the volume allows the low price to create profit.

The volume would be fine if warez wasn't in the picture IMO. We're talking about over 28 million devices (palmsource's numbers, not mine). If you sell to 1% of that and have a $20 product, you'll do well as a small company. The problem is that warez is _so_ rampent on this platform that for every copy you sell, someone will steal 5. Look for example at the number of posters on this board that want to trade warez or point to warez sites.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by xyeta
While I am not saying that 'weakly secured' software deserves to be stolen, I think that if it were a big financial impact for software companies, they would make better software (which could not be patched).

Unfortunately it's very difficult for a solo developer to secure an app. To make it patch proof you have to have a considerable amount of knowledge and jump though lots of hoops. This again hurts consumers because it costs money and that cost is passed on to us.

Also I believe that your car analogy falls short. It's as if someone made an exact duplicate of a Ford Mustang and starting giving them away for free to anyone who wanted one. Ford could make a more secure car next time, but their profits/cost recouping is gone on the Mustang. Do you think that Ford could afford to have this happen many times?

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by ayasin
The volume would be fine if warez wasn't in the picture IMO. We're talking about over 28 million devices (palmsource's numbers, not mine).28 million in what timeframe? I have about five PDAs sitting around that I never touch. My sister has gone through about three Palms and her husband about four because they travel a lot and are just plain hard on them, plus upgrade regularly. Palm claimed their 2003Q1 sales were, including the Zire, 880K units; that's less than 4 million a year, and that's including the massive Zire sales, which you certainly won't be selling $20 add-ons to. (It only cost $99 at release, and I've seen it for $80 locally in the last few weeks.)

I personally simply don't pirate software, and I sympathize with your situation. But the average Palm user, if my family is any indication, doesn't even know you can get software except from CompUSA. They don't go online except to discuss cats. (Hence my avatar.)

Enough about whether it's a big problem or just a small problem; we agree it's "bad". What should we do about it? I presume most PalmOS software registers to the HotSync name - at least I believe most of the stuff I bought did. Is that being cracked? Do we need better encryption around it?

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by ayasin
Unfortunately it's very difficult for a solo developer to secure an app. To make it patch proof you have to have a considerable amount of knowledge and jump though lots of hoops.Generally all you have to do is MD5 or other CRC it and check it from several places through-out. That doesn't make it patch-proof, but it raises the bar high enough that copying is very difficult. I built an anti-virus technology that did that over a decade ago, automatically grafted onto our fresh builds. (Non-Palm, of course, but the concepts transfer fine.)

Are you saying you have a product that has been pirated out from under you?

[ayasin]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
I presume most PalmOS software registers to the HotSync name - at least I believe most of the stuff I bought did. Is that being cracked? Do we need better encryption around it?

Well it's trivial to bypass registration screens and there are already programs that will change your HotSync ID on a per program basis. You need to invest in much more than that to keep your app from being cracked. ROM tokens are a good start but the best so far are probably PKI encryped code sections, self modifying code (based on the reg key) or a combination of the two.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
Are you saying you have a product that has been pirated out from under you?

No, not me personally, but I am a developer so I have a vested interest in piracy and I have seen enough good products get pirated that I wanted to see what the community views are. We work pretty hard to make sure piracy is significantly harder than just buying the software (part of that of course is providing the software at a reasonable price).

[Stumper]

Warez is a mind set problem. Since the onset of the computer era software piracy has been a huge problem. Where it comes from is the idea of putting out money for something and not actually owning it. For the first time in the history of mankind we are purchasing something intangible. An exchange without something we can physically touch. It's an unusual concept when you really put your mind around it. Look at what we have done to the music industry and mp3's. It's very hard to think of buying something and not owning it lock stock and barrel. You can use it but that's it. It's not yours to modify, rename or make your own. You can't even give it away if you wish. Basically we purchase the right to use the product, that's all.
This is the boggle that is hurting the industry as a whole. There are inroads to making this change however it is a slow process. Vehicle leases are similar, so is renting the Matrix from Blockbuster. However these are all tangable items that we can wrap our mitts around. Until the masses get the whole idea of paying to use, not own, piracy will haunt the entire sofware and music industry. Unfortunate for those of us that make a living at producing software and music. At times more time is spent fighting piracy vs making an awesome product. The worst part is trying to stay ahead of it all. For every in road made with higher levels of encryption and anti-hacking protection the damn hackers figure a way around it. It's an age old problem that will haunt the industry forever IMO.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
My sister has gone through about three Palms and her husband about four because they travel a lot and are just plain hard on them, plus upgrade regularly.
I think that situatation is not all that common. Most people have owned 2 to 3 at most. Plus the market size is growing daily.


massive Zire sales, which you certainly won't be selling $20 add-ons to. (It only cost $99 at release, and I've seen it for $80 locally in the last few weeks.)
I don't think that it necessarily follows that if hardware is cheap ($80) people will not invest in software. Take Playstation for example. The average game is about a quarter of the cost of the console.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by Stumper
Warez is a mind set problem. Since the onset of the computer era software piracy has been a huge problem. Where it comes from is the idea of putting out money for something and not actually owning it. For the first time in the history of mankind we are purchasing something intangible.
I agree that this is probably the fundamental problem and that potentially education is the solution (which is what I was trying to do in my initial post).

At times more time is spent fighting piracy vs making an awesome product. The worst part is trying to stay ahead of it all. For every in road made with higher levels of encryption and anti-hacking protection the damn hackers figure a way around it. It's an age old problem that will haunt the industry forever IMO.

I agree that the problem isn't going away. My concern is that it's becoming acceptable and natural to pirate software. The analogy of the music industry is a good one, but the music industry will get sales from people who don't have CD burners or access to the net etc. This is not the case for software. If you have a computer, you have access to pirated software and if you don't have a computer you don't need software. I'm especially concerned because of the open discussion of piracy and statements (on these boards) like "I use warez because I don't like paying for software, I'll save my money for the hardware". I don't think that these people understand that they are undermining the very platform they use. If they do understand that and continue to do it then they are not all that bright IMO.

[Roni]

there's one thing i've been wondering about the numbers of "lost sales" there has been about piracy, if you take for example some kid who doesn't have money for a cd and copies it from the net, is it still a "lost sale" and "lost profit" if he wouldn't even consider getting it if he/she had to pay for it?
Do the numbers i've been seeing in the public take into account in "total amount of lost profit because of piracy" those also who wouldn't even think of buying it otherwise?
:confused:

[Flash-57]

> One of the problems is that ... a new CD of, say,
> Cher or Aerosmith is $17.99 but a new concert
> DVD with 110 minutes instead of 64 minutes ...

Actually, the one problem that I've always had with the recording industry is that many albums will have only one or two good tracks on it and the rest will be useless filler. I can't begin to count the number of albums and CDs I own where I only like one song on it. I'm pretty sure that record companies do that on purpose.

Now that I can rip the tracks off CDs, I can produce my own CD compilations with just the stuff I like. It's what the record companies should be doing already (i.e., allowing me to pick and choose the songs I want).

And the ability to use the internet to download a bunch of tracks from a new CD has helped me. I can download a few tracks from some new album and listen to them for a while. If I like 3-4 of them, I'll buy the album right away. If they all turn out to be duds except the one big hit I heard on the radio, I aint buying the album.

The internet has changed the way that the record industry must do business. If they don't change, they will die. Suing people is not the answer and will just dig themselves into a bigger hole.

WAREZ software is in a similar boat.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by Flash-57
WAREZ software is in a similar boat.

How so? Other than making it easier for people to steal software. I don't see how Warez has in any way a similar argument to "I only liked 1 or 2 songs".

[ayasin]

Originally posted by Roni
take for example some kid who doesn't have money for a cd and copies it from the net, is it still a "lost sale" and "lost profit" if he wouldn't even consider getting it if he/she had to pay for it?

In some cases yes. The reason being that if they couldn't steal it, most would likely either save up and buy it or go without it untill it was priced somewhere they were comfortable with (potentially opening up a market for a lower priced less featured version). This also really doesn't apply to the PDA market where people are dropping several hundred dollars for the device. I'm hard pressed to believe that someone can afford a PDA on average priced around $300 and still can't afford $20 to register software.

[rinnovative]

as a solo developer, I am have voted warez DO hurt us.

here is a case just happen these few days, yes, I am talking about your case G.

few days ago, I was talking to a very very nice and good Palm programmer, which he sell his nice software at a very affortable price, a couple of us dollars.

here is the line:
R "hey you did a petty good job on the new release of your XYZ."
G "how so?"
R "sort of see that some underground site base in XXX are having a hard time on XYZ!"
G "yeah, I put in a segment of ........ protection on!"
R "good on you man!"

and yesterday, we find that some cracker already post a so call kg of his software online.......
and I meet him today, we are both very upset about what has been happening......

whats happening is, all these crackers are killing us, now G and me has to do our apps with extra code to protect our tiny little income.

which actually, I do hate this idea.
it longer my developing time frame. (one of my app has been almost finish for few months, and I am still doing the protection code as I still can't find a good way of doing it!)

it stop me from giving out demo for user, most of the apps I wrote are no demo apps, you want to buy, please pay first, anyway they are cracked very quick after I release them.....

it slows the app down, no matter what protection, it does slow the app down, maybe not a big one, but it does, I think most programmer don't like this in their apps, neither do user.

this is just my 2 cents, which I am suprise to found that quite a few developer also agrees:
if someone are good enough to "BY PASS" my protection, well, they are good, we can't stop them from doing it, but ain't putting these so call "edu. propose info" on public domain a bit too much? what did they gain? name? or pride? but that really hurt some ppl out there!


well.......... I know it is not gonna stop these ppl to do things they are doing now, so I better go back to work now on the code....

still very good to see the thread about this issue.
thx ayasin.

[Roni]

Good point.
By the way, i think he mean't that someone could like only 1 or 2 features of some program, and thinks the rest of it is a "dud".

[Roni]

I have an idea that could be a hit or miss against warez, what if you'd do a "demo version" that isn't activated that easy? on all pages advertise that it is a feature limited demo version and if you buy, you have to pay and then download a new program, but try to do that part of the program is encrypted, and when someone registers it right, the code entered acts as the key to encryption, all invisible to user, it might take a while when decrypting, but atleast there's a chance this might stall them for a while.

[Unregistered]

Just curious - how many of us would be willing to buy a copied/pirated DVD for US$5 (and assuming the video quality was good). Especially those who live in large cities such as LA or NYC, they are sold on every corner. Pirated computer software on the other hand, is not always so visible on any street corner. But the question remains, do we hold double standards? (And I won't even touch the MP3 issue). Would you mind buying a fax Rolex on your next trip to Hong Kong? And quite a few items on ebay described as OEM are of course not. By the way, I do not condone warez, but just posing the questions. How about fake Oakley sunglasses?

[SB_Pete]

just to put in my two cents as a non-developer and to get back to the original point of the poll. I think the argument that it hurts the small developers much more than the large ones holds very naturally. It is perhaps part of the whole natural selection process. An unfair part to be sure as companies are weeded out not by their ability to please their customers, but by their ability to make their potential customers pay for the product. Still, it seems this is much less of a problem in the PC/Mac world than it is in the Palm community. This is largely due to the chaotic nature of the Palm software market at the moment I think, and will progress towards the state of PC software as the larger companies start to really take over the market

I personnally purchase the palm software I use (though I will admit a lack of the same moral fiber when it comes to music). Though I could argue all day about my poverty as a student, etc etc, it is a meaningless argument. I do use warez from time to time to test a product whose "crippleware" is just too infuriating to really test it, but I always buy the product which I finally decide upon using for the need I was testing various products for.

I think it is just an unfortunate reality of human nature that a certain element will always fill the "free rider" position, utilising the benefits of a system and not paying the price to use it. Many of these free riders though, I think would not be buying a product they use if they had to pay for it for various reasons. The potential advantage here is when these users who would not be using if they had to buy, express their satisfaction with the usefullness of a product to an aquaintance who becomes a non free rider. If this happens even once then, despite the fact that it is still wrong, the developer comes out on top, making a sale where they otherwise might or would not have.

this argument becomes even more persuasive when you consider those who are the "free riders" in this market: people who have an expertise in computers/electronics/software which leads them to be considered sources of advice by their non-expert friends who do not have the ability/wherewithall/etc. to become a free-rider. In the end, these types of free riders, while it would be better if they were buying their software, do serve the purpose of driving sales amongst others people of type who "don't go online except to discuss cats" ;) or other non-technical people.

I am not saying it is right, but they do serve a prupose which helps developers sometimes, even if by doing so they are commiting a wrong

[Flash-57]

> How so? Other than making it easier for people
> to steal software. I don't see how Warez has in
> any way a similar argument to "I only liked 1 or 2
> songs".

Well, when I said that, I was refering to the statement that the internet has changed the way that music/software companies must do business.

However, since you did bring up the comparison to "1 or 2 good songs", I will point out that, next to my shelf full of CDs with 1 or 2 good songs on them, is a shelf of video games that looked good on the store's shelf or in the demo, but turned out to be horrible after an hour or so of play.

Had I downloaded each title as WAREZ first, I would have been able to find out which ones I really liked. I have no problem paying for software that I know I will enjoy and find useful.

So, maybe the comparison isn't too bad after all.

Are you implying that it is simply the customer's burden to suffer the poor software that is created and distributed? How do most software companies react when a customer sends back a product and asks for a refund?

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Just curious - how many of us would be willing to buy a copied/pirated DVD for US$5 (and assuming the video quality was good). Especially those who live in large cities such as LA or NYC, they are sold on every corner. Pirated computer software on the other hand, is not always so visible on any street corner. But the question remains, do we hold double standards? (And I won't even touch the MP3 issue). Would you mind buying a fax Rolex on your next trip to Hong Kong? <snip> How about fake Oakley sunglasses?
There's a massive difference between counterfiet merchandise (Polo shirts, Rolex watches, Levis) and software/music/video.

The former is likely to be much lower in quality than the original, and yet you have some tangible value for the purchase. The brandname vendor is out an insignificant amount... sure, lost margin, but they didn't actually materials or shipping or manufacturing costs, and the design costs have long since been amortized.

In contrast, media and software are all about design costs, not manufacturing costs. Videos make most of their sales very quickly, like first semester. Same with albums... who even remembers the music groups "Contraband" or "Musical Youth" or "Trio", and yet all hit the charts quite respectably at their time. And software has a very limited shelf-life due to the speed of technology. It is purely intellectual property. So comparing it to hard goods doesn't work.

On the other hand, one of the current problems with trademark and copyright law is that it was not designed to provide the kinds of protections needed today. "Intellectual property" didn't exist 200 years ago, and copyrights were meant to protect short-term income. Hence the battle over the ever-lengthening corporate copyright protection acts.

And even as a developer I think it's not clear what should be ideal. Patents only last for something like 20 years, why should copyrights last forever?

[ayasin]

Originally posted by Flash-57
Are you implying that it is simply the customer's burden to suffer the poor software that is created and distributed?
I wouldn't use the words "suffer the poor software" but to some extent yes, do your homework before purchasing. Find out what people who purchased it think, read reviews and see if it fits into the usage criteria you have for it. Obviuosly this doesn't excuse shady marketing practices (like promising features in the full version that are deceptive). It's already illegal for companies to defaud you by promising something and not delivering (deceptive trade practices laws). I don't really follow your point about the games...if you liked the demo what was wrong with the full version?

How do most software companies react when a customer sends back a product and asks for a refund?
Except for companies that can verify that your actually sending it back I'm sure they are (legitimately) concerned. If they use a hardware key or something it's probably not an issue. It's like going to a restraunt and demanding a refund for the meal you ate there because it didn't agree with you a couple of hours later. How do you think the restraunt would react?

[ayasin]

Originally posted by SB_Pete
The potential advantage here is when these users who would not be using if they had to buy, express their satisfaction with the usefullness of a product to an aquaintance who becomes a non free rider. If this happens even once then, despite the fact that it is still wrong, the developer comes out on top, making a sale where they otherwise might or would not have.
I think that if a person using a warez version shows it to someone else, they are _much_ more likely to beam them their warez copy than to encourage them to purchase a legitimate copy. I actually believe the latter would almost never happen. And the non-technical people are likely to not even know that they are doing something wrong.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
And even as a developer I think it's not clear what should be ideal. Patents only last for something like 20 years, why should copyrights last forever?

There should probably be a special class of patent for software rather than relying on copyright laws which aren't designed to protect ideas but the expression of those ideas.

[Alistar]

The large problem with software protection is that everything has to be seen somewhere. The software must pass a flag that says it is registered. It is usually a fairly simple matter to locate the flag if you know what you are doing. Then it is simply a matter of modifying it so that a '1' or 'true' 'this app is registered' value is always passed.
I have always been an avid fan of security and encryption and I always try to think of ways to make it better.
I have been experimenting writing a program (not palm just generally, its C++ at the moment) that kind of encrypts your program. The full version of a program would consists of an algroithm that uses any number of variables (i have it testing on 3 at the moment), so you could use Hotsync ID and the registration ID, which when entered correctly will construct the program and allow full use. Subsequentially running the program will randomly select portions of the constructed program and compare them them to running algorithm output again. This will eventually catch any patching and make it very annoying to continually have to repatch. Currently I am working working on randomizing the algorithim so that it will produce the same results, but will not allow it to be generally patched. The algorithim will restructure itself everyone once in awhile to prevent patching.
Then the presence of both objects will be necessary to run the program. Also the actual program will contain the algorithm to check for differences (randomly again) it will restructure the algorithm and update both.
Now to prevent people from patching the restructuring component to prevent it from happening I am working on general encryption, kind of like what you see with PGP self-decryptors.
When I am done with this I need to wait for some more speed so I can plan to get into commercial programming implementing these procedures, as the speed of this process would be incredibly slow on a current palm device.
Sure, people will eventually get by them, but it will be a larger deterrent.
I forgot to mention my alternate decryption. Regardless of what you enter you will get a result, only it won't be the correct result. It is mainly meant to be used for secret codes. Try to break the decryption will result in various options that may seem correct. I am working on an artificial intelligence to manipulate the original to viable alternatives, rather than having to enter them by hand. I was inspired my physics prof who always gave you the most common wrong answers in multiple choice.

[Unregistered]

ayasin - some of your beta testers think nothing of passing around pirated software. they don't do it with yours because they like you.

not liking a company seems to make it ok. situational ethics abound.

[ayasin]

Originally posted by Unregistered
ayasin - some of your beta testers think nothing of passing around pirated software. they don't do it with yours because they like you.

not liking a company seems to make it ok. situational ethics abound.

I don't condone it in any case. Also someone in the original beta group DID try to warez our product so it's not like these people discriminate between big and small.

[Roni]

What about something against warez that you have a special version for registered that has an unique code and it needs to be registered through net, sending the unique code, if you detect a code that doesn't exist in your files, or a code that has been already used once, just make it disable itself then...

[mouthdrummer]

I just don't see how anyone's ever going to get a handle on the warez issue. You build a better mousetrap, and along comes a smarter rat. But then, perhaps the Open Source folks have the right idea. Where's the challenge in hacking a piece of free software?

On a similar note - what about those who use cracked/patched software to evaluate it? Do you think this is just lip service? Or are there folks who actually do that?

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by mouthdrummer
I just don't see how anyone's ever going to get a handle on the warez issue. You build a better mousetrap, and along comes a smarter rat. But then, perhaps the Open Source folks have the right idea. Where's the challenge in hacking a piece of free software?
As the creator of several open-source projects on SourceForge and numerous award-winning freeware products going back a very long time, I can tell you the problem with thinking of Open Source as the way to prevent warez... us open-source programmers have to make money to survive, such that we can dedicate time to free software.

The usual approach is a commercial job that pays the bills and a hobby project (open source) for what we love.