1SRC Podcast 131

[Alan G]

This week we cover the initial reaction to Palm's latest device, the Palm Foleo. Tyler Faux and Jimmie Geddes are my special co-hosts for the evening. [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1908)]

[Alan G]

Again, as special thanks to my co-hosts, Tyler and Jimmie for helping me cover Palm's latest device, the Palm Foleo.

Alan G

[LupeValenz]

Woot woot! Ask and you shall receive! Off to hopefully brighten up :D

[danielmaradona]

I'm downloading the podcast right now and I'm excited to hear the rant from you guys. Palm is very dissapointing for unveling a very weak product than can only do emails and some web browsing in the form factor of a UMPC. Notebook for Fujitsu and Sony is a better alternative than having this kind of product.

They only intended this product for mobile professional on the go, people who does not own a treo will never find a practical use for this device. Do you think that Foleo can do some Youtube, Google Earth and a lot of other stuff that you can do from an entry level laptop? My answer not as good, so why spent some money on this. I'm very dissapointed.

[danielmaradona]

I'm downloading the podcast right now and I'm excited to hear the rant from you guys. Palm is very dissapointing for unveling a very weak product than can only do emails and some web browsing in the form factor of a UMPC. Notebook from Fujitsu and Sony is a better alternative than having this kind of product.

They only intended this product for mobile professional on the go, people who does not own a treo will never find a practical use for this device. Do you think that Foleo can do some Youtube, Google Earth and a lot of other stuff that you can do from an entry level laptop? My answer not as good, so why spent some money on this. I'm very dissapointed.

[archangel]

Thanks for trying to get my hopes up Alan. I really want this device, but they have to add more software before the launch. It can't have less apps than my Lifedrive.

Hopefully, we get more info before the launch and hopefully this device will be useful as a standalone device.

[Ohappydaye]

Downloading this now, I can't wait to hear it!

[Drunkard]

You forgot to add the Treo sounds Alan. Hehehe.

[LupeValenz]

I would like to take part in that choice you all had: Foleo or iPhone...well its iPhone. Speaking of that I think the combo release would be ideal if they release an iPhone form factor Treo with the Foleo so that way if you do need the keyboard, you do have it with the Foleo. I think I would use it like that, enter the contacts, emails, documents edit on the Foleo and sync it up with the Treo to view throughout the day and then listen to some music and view movies on the big 320x480 screen. That would be a decent combo, but still, I was hoping more than this device. ;_;

[Vampire Lestat]

I just got in from work.
I watched Mr. Hawkins presentation.
First off, Hawking's has a lovable aura that makes you want to go up and hug him for no reason other than him being what appears to be a fundamentally good person.

Foleo
Foleo
Foleo
Foleo

Because of who Mr. Hawkins is, because of his genius, because of his good intentions, I will be politically correct and refrain from excessive language. Nor do I plan on investing much energy on commenting the Foleo.

The Foleo will not sell.
Why?
- XP laptops are established. Suspend mode exists. Small form factors exist.
- YouTube does not work. Video capability limited. No OLED.
- Consumers are seeking simplification through 1 home laptop, and 1 pocket device (cell, mp3, pim).
- Full size BT/IR portable keybs for PDAs exist.
- Consumers are seeking a PDA that maximizes visibility through
a) reduction of frame thickness around screen.
b) OLED
c) SuperHires
d) iPhone style screen that utilizes 100% of area for viewing.
e) software solution that allows users to tap/hold and auto-zoom on areas of interest e.g., on a web page.
- No touchscreen. Graffiti allows blind writing. Stylus brings hand precision control.

I could go on, but I promised myself I would be succinct.
I hope Ed Colligan will not make Mr. Hawkins irrelevant at Palm Inc. following any failure of this new product line. Jeff founded Palm and deserves respect.
I wish Mr. Hawkins my sincere best wishes in other projects. I am looking forward to his contributions in the Numenta AI field.

Vamp

Vampire Lestat. My take on the Foleo.

[LupeValenz]

Oh forgot to mention about the IM, really doesn't need to be built in because mostly alot of IM's are being accessible through the browsers now a days. Don't need to install anything. I knew I was forgetting to comment on something.

[JAmerican]

I want a small, form-factor everything-in-one cheap device. The Foleo should have had support for what the Treo supports.

Why didn't they partner with CoreCodec people for Media? They could have targeted more than just business people. This could have been targeted to College Students!

Problems with the Foleo:

-Poor preparation
-Rushed
-Poor research

I thought about the Internal CF and External SD cards but if this device does not support great VIDEO playback, then it will FLOP!

Foleo must have more features. I really wonder how much processor power it has? This is the Nokia N800 all over again. Looks nice. Large Screen. Lack of Software. Why does it seem like Linux-based mobile devices always suck?

Palm Foleo II definately will be the device the Foleo should be. That is if Palm Foleo does not kill Palm. It should have had touchscreen.


JAmerican

[Vampire Lestat]

Ja,

It is best that we simply ignore the Foleo and quietly move on. Let's just pretend it was not even announced.


Alan, Jimmie, Tyler,

I did the same thing a few weeks ago, I uninstalled Vista and went back to XP. I got fed up wasting my precious time fighting with compatibility and design issues. XP is much faster and more fun.

[dragonsgames]

This is my first PodCast. What else do I have to do at 2AM?

[Alan G]

You forgot to add the Treo sounds Alan.

Actually, I didn't. I did try to add them in, but for some strange reason, Garage Band capped the podcast length at 1 hour and 6 minutes and I couldn't got beyond that point. The entire podcast runs about 1 hour and 12 minutes. So, I couldn't add the Treo SD card bumpers at either end.

Alan G

[Alan G]

I hope to have an editorial posted later today that will expand on what Palm says the target market is for the Foleo, here is a hint - it ain't must of us and what I feel Palm needs to add to make this product ready to ship.

Alan G

[Jimmie Geddes]

I had a great time speaking to intelligent people:)

Engadget has a video of Ed Colligan speaking about the Foleo.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/31/palms-ed-colligan-foleo-is-the-wii-of-portable-computing/

He expects there to be thousands of applications available soon by providing the tools for developers. I'm glad he is coming out and saying this, just start with putting the PIM's on the Foleo first. For now my Treo is going to remain single, and not need a companion with the Foleo. I hope my feelings change.

[ewah]

I was quite disappointed with the foleo. I don't need a half baked laptop. If they where going for the link between the precious treo and a full screen they should have just cramped the entire foleo idea onto a PCMCIA card. They could have created an interface api for windows /mac/linux and allowed this to display the devices data. They could have used their awesome syncing ability to allow real time psuedo USB drive style access onto a real laptop, via bluetooth

I just don't see with widespread wifi availablity, executives with laptops, why someone would want this.

[Jimmie Geddes]

I wrote this on GOTG last night summing up my feelings on the Foleo

http://gadgetsonthego.net/2007/05/if-youre-going-to-give-me-super-sized.html

[lajandy]

Great thoughts on the Foleo launch, guys. (Though will someone pull Geddes aside and tell him it's announced /tree o/ not /tray o/? Yeah, maybe devices of old had an accent mark over the e, but that long ago turned into a long vowel mark.) I guess I thought the Foleo would be more like the Fujitsu U series (http://www.fujitsu.com/global/news/pr/archives/month/2007/20070516-01.html). Sure, the Fujitsu is supposed to be $1000+, but I thought Palm would delete the hard drive, put in an ARM processor, and replace Windows with Linux-powered Palm OS Mark II so they could drop the price to $300-400 (or maybe charge a little more if it had a built-in CDMA or GSM transceiver). I guess I thought the Foleo would be the replacement for their PDA line, providing more functionality to PDA device users but in a package that would attract potential UMPC users that didn't like Windows or didn't want to shell out the $$$. I guess I was wrong!

The sad thing is, though I see this as an incredibly useful device for some people, in the end I don't think it will be a success. This would be an excellent notetaking device, great for cash-strapped students, but at $600 (OK, $500 w/rebate), cash-strapped students are going to pony up the extra $50-100 for a real laptop. And I know the Foleo isn't supposed to be a laptop; I think it's mostly similar to a full-screen AlphaSmart Dana (or the old Newton eMate), but how many Danas does AlphaSmart sell per year? The Foleo almost seems to be a vertical or niche market product aimed at the mass market. Though it's "not a laptop," it has a laptop-size keyboard and a near-laptop-size screen; J. Random Consumer is going to look at this and say "that is a laptop." At $200 (or maybe even as high as $300) this could sell to a small market; at $600, full-blown laptops will eat its lunch.

Of course, even that is just considering the device as a stand-alone unit that uses WiFi or a user's cheap Bluetooth feature phone for connectivity. If you factor in the $200-400+ Palm thinks a user will spend on a smartphone in addition to this, that Fujitsu looks way more attractive.

[sigh] Palm, what's wrong with you? Can't you just make devices people want?

[GadgetGuru]

The podcast that since the Foleo has a web browser then it could use Google Apps and other stuff... my view is that web based apps requires a lot of horsepower, and I doubt the Foleo will have that...

I wish I am wrong, as I am a Palm PDA user (and still am) from way back but the Nicolas Negroponte's $100 (had that increased to $!50) laptop looks more promising... although that will only be available in third world countries...

[PDAJah]

With the Foleo and Palm PIM apps (and Agendus) we don't need Outlook! I hate Outlook- a very limited PIM app that is constraining our ability to plan and organise. In fact the Foleo allos me to move away from M$ by using all the wonderful Palm apps synced to my Clie...

[BaDZeD]

And porting linux apps should be easy as well. I remember Stephen saying the photo viewer was "created" in about half hour. My guess is that they simply ported a linux app.

I think the device looks promising if it has GHost (or similar) and PIMs built in

[HBL]

What perked up my ears on the podcast was the description of the CF slot in the battery compartment. Will this allow expansion of OS memory?

[Dick Tracy]

So the Foleo is not what I expected it to be; hopefully Palm has other plans more along the lines I had expected. I think the target customer for Foleo does not spend much time visiting forums nor do they have many third-party applications on their Treos. They do their business and get on with other things. The vast majority of Treo users I know outside these forums barely utilize 5% of its capabilities. Some send a lot of email and I expect they would like the Foleo's full size keyboard without having to struggle with a laptop, aircard, etc. while on the go.

I was just at my dentist getting a filling. One of the tools he was using ejected more of a substance than he expected at one point in the procedure. He then told me that this tool used to come with a lever and now has buttons. He doesn't like the buttons as they are less user friendly and cause more repetitive strain injury.

The same might be said for heavy emailing on a Treo keyboard vs. the Foleo.

I'm not in the target demographic but I might take a look at it as a lightweight surfing and emailing tool for use on the couch. Will have to know more about the detailed specs and whether the battery warms up before I make any decision.

[JAmerican]

I am with Sharky on this one. Palm made major mistakes with this product and they should be pointed out. You shouldn't just buy it because its a Palm device. That
means if Hawkins took a crap and put the label Palm Feces on it, you would buy it? Excuse my language but that what it seems like. To buy a $600 device because it is a wireless keyboard with a large screen is somewhat foolish. I think you guys should stop speculating and starting looking at what is being offered. You guys seem always very optimistic towards Palm and you guys have to start being realistic. Even if your a Palm fanboy. If no one buys the Fooleo, then Palm will feel a sharp pain in their wallet. To relieve that pain, they will start reading hate mail about the Foleo and then will revise the issues in the Foleo II if they don't die in the process.

One last thing I want to say is that when something is a companion of another, it is an accessory. It is a complement, not a supplement. To make a third business off of an accessory just leaves me daised and confused.

JAmerican

[Ohappydaye]

I just listened to this from start to finish (fell asleep half way last night :o ...I couldn't help it, it was late!)...but I have to say GREAT podcast. Thank you so much Alan, Tyler and Jimmie! I really enjoyed it.

I must say that when the Foleo was first announced I felt a bit deflated...but now I'm getting more and more excited. This thing is waaay lighter than my iBook and if they can get video features on this (like Tyler I believe it was pointed out) it would seriously rock.

I mentioned over at BH, that I'm going to believe in Jeff. He's a creative genius so I'm going to believe that he is super hype because there's something awesome he's not telling us. I am optimistic that there will be an abundance of 3rd party apps for this and that it just might end up replacing my iBook. I know, I know...I talk like a mad woman, but I'm going out on a limb with this one.

I'm going to keep a close eye on this and after the bugs are worked out and the apps are ready I might be in the market for this.

I'm glad you guys discussed whether or not it would work with a non-Treo device. Hook over on BH seems to think it would. I'd like to definitely know, so thank you for looking into this Jimmie and for checking on the PIMS.

[Jimmie Geddes]

Great thoughts on the Foleo launch, guys. (Though will someone pull Geddes aside and tell him it's announced /tree o/ not /tray o/? Yeah, maybe devices of old had an accent mark over the e, but that long ago turned into a long vowel mark.) I guess I thought the Foleo would be more like the Fujitsu U series (http://www.fujitsu.com/global/news/pr/archives/month/2007/20070516-01.html). Sure, the Fujitsu is supposed to be $1000+, but I thought Palm would delete the hard drive, put in an ARM processor, and replace Windows with Linux-powered Palm OS Mark II so they could drop the price to $300-400 (or maybe charge a little more if it had a built-in CDMA or GSM transceiver). I guess I thought the Foleo would be the replacement for their PDA line, providing more functionality to PDA device users but in a package that would attract potential UMPC users that didn't like Windows or didn't want to shell out the $$$. I guess I was wrong!

The sad thing is, though I see this as an incredibly useful device for some people, in the end I don't think it will be a success. This would be an excellent notetaking device, great for cash-strapped students, but at $600 (OK, $500 w/rebate), cash-strapped students are going to pony up the extra $50-100 for a real laptop. And I know the Foleo isn't supposed to be a laptop; I think it's mostly similar to a full-screen AlphaSmart Dana (or the old Newton eMate), but how many Danas does AlphaSmart sell per year? The Foleo almost seems to be a vertical or niche market product aimed at the mass market. Though it's "not a laptop," it has a laptop-size keyboard and a near-laptop-size screen; J. Random Consumer is going to look at this and say "that is a laptop." At $200 (or maybe even as high as $300) this could sell to a small market; at $600, full-blown laptops will eat its lunch.

Of course, even that is just considering the device as a stand-alone unit that uses WiFi or a user's cheap Bluetooth feature phone for connectivity. If you factor in the $200-400+ Palm thinks a user will spend on a smartphone in addition to this, that Fujitsu looks way more attractive.

[sigh] Palm, what's wrong with you? Can't you just make devices people want?

Many people besides myself call it Tray-oh. Steve Jobs, Howard Stern just to name a few. You say tomato, I say tomato. It will always be Treo (tray-oh) to me. :)

[HBL]

You shouldn't just buy it because its a Palm device. That
means if Hawkins took a crap and put the label Palm Feces on it, you would buy it? Excuse my language but that what it seems like.
^^
I dunno...it seems to me there's another computer company out there that inspires the same kind of fanatical loyalty...although the name escapes me right now...hmmmm...i think it starts with an "A" :D

[Alan G]

You guys should read A Conversation with Jeff Hawkins over on TreoCentral (http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1224-1.htm).

Those of you who have written the Foleo off and think that Palm is about to go out of business need not bother.

Alan G

[Alan G]

And since I'm getting a little bit tired of all the negativity from the PDA Cult crowd, I'll toss this little tid bit out there from a recent article written by PJ Arts over on PalmAddict (http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2007/05/foleo_not_for_t.html).

The most underwhelmed group is, by far, the PDAces. Increasingly disenfranchised, they continue to ignore the fact that every major PDA manufacturer has stopped manufacturing PDAs. Last November (at the Treo 680 Press Conference) Ed Colligan told me flat out that Palm would not be producing any more PDAs. So, today's non-PDA announcement must have felt like the proverbial nail in the coffin for their hopes.

Alan G

[ewah]

You guys should read A Conversation with Jeff Hawkins over on TreoCentral (http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1224-1.htm).

Those of you who have written the Foleo off and think that Palm is about to go out of business need not bother.

Alan G

Well as one of those who think palm is going down for the last time, nobody knows how this will impact palm only time will tell. If there is a market it will sell, it is certainly bold. You seem to speak your mind and I believe you are honest, but I'm not sure why you think that all of the "PDA" wingnuts are wingnuts at all. Everyone seems to forget what computers are about, the P stands for Personal as in the selfish version. We all want what we want. I guess you can assume that everyone who is happy about this product are just quiet, everything I've seen is running 95% against. For me palm has just gone a different direction, it happens but it is frustrating because every company seems to think everyone wants a smart phone. Personally most people are technically unable to know what is a good product and one that is taking advantage of them, or that it isn't a technical reason why they can't do this or that, that companies are now using technology against their customers to herd them they way they want them to go.. Cell phone companies are just about the worst ones and that palm completely put there future into these idiots is very depressing.

One last point in this latest podcast you said you wouldn't be getting the 755p, your reason not that you didn't like the device, not that you didn't want the device but oh ya, you didn't want a cingular/att contract, or maybe you didn't want to pay to get out of the other one, neither of these has anything to do with the actual product but a business decision made by someone that could care less about you or your business. I personally won't be treated this way period.

I do appriecate the effort it must take you to do a weekly podcast. I can respect your viewpoint even thou 80% of the time I disagree with it. Your opinions make me think about my decisions at that is a good thing.

tim

[LupeValenz]

I say it Tray-oh as well :) thats the way it should be said ^_^ Tree-oh sounds ....weird o_O!

[ewah]

I say it Tray-oh as well :) thats the way it should be said ^_^ Tree-oh sounds ....weird o_O!

Take a look at this post over at treocentral.

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=937092&postcount=6

[Modnar]

I say it Tray-oh as well :) thats the way it should be said ^_^ Tree-oh sounds ....weird o_O!

My accent would make it sound like tree-oh!

[LupeValenz]

Take a look at this post over at treocentral.

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=937092&postcount=6
Thanks but like I said, it should be said Tray-oh :D Tree-oh just sounds weird. Can't budge because Tray-oh is cooler hehe.

[holvoetn]

Just one minor remark (still have to listen to the podcast):

Anyone remember the comments when NVFS first came out ? It was also claimed to be the dead of Palm ...

[PDAJah]

You guys should read A Conversation with Jeff Hawkins over on TreoCentral (http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1224-1.htm).

Those of you who have written the Foleo off and think that Palm is about to go out of business need not bother.

Alan G

So the Foleo is really about future Smartphones than the Foleo itself - the future OS, the future Treo concepts and functionality. So probably best to wait till the next Treo is lanuched before we can judge the Foleo fully. Palm need to give developers a year or so to get apps developed ready for the next generation Treo + Foleo...so no Garnet emulation layer

[archangel]

So the target market is executives. I will agree executives waste lots of money, but you are not going to find enough executives to make this device successful.

I work in an environment with the kind of people that rely daily on the Treos and Blackberries and have yet to find a single one that would replace their notebook PCs with this. The notebook has become too important in the business world to replace it with the Foleo.

I check my email all day on my PDA, but do most of my writing of email and working on spreadsheets on my notebook. I also have to log into my company through VPN all the time and doubt the Foleo could offer enough functionality to replace my notebook PC.

There simply isn't a market for the Foleo. If he wants to market something to executives he should try gold plated hat racks. They all buy crap like that.

[I love my mom]

You fellows are jumping to conclusions. You realize you're saying a product is going to fail when:

1. It's in it's first stages. It's much better to make a product doing only what it claims and letting the people using it tell you what they want to make it better. Sure they could have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink but if only for name, and nobody uses most the features, then it's pointless. Who knows, This product might end up replacing your notebook. I guarantee you a new hardware company doesn't start by making blow-you-away hardware. You have to give it time to develop.

2. You haven't used it yet. The product isn't being sold, you haven't even touched it. You're basing an entire opinion on photos and other people's reviews.

3. The details are very sketchy. You don't know all the hardware and software specifications, so once again, you have already developed an opinion without knowing critical things about the product.

4. Palm isn't stupid. They wouldn't decide to make a whole new product line because they felt like it. This is a huge expansion, not just another device.

I'm not saying the product will succeed, all I'm saying is wait until you know what's going on to make an opinion. I'm befuddled how you can one second you love Palm because of something they've done, and the next you're condemning them to death simply because of lack of knowledge.

Well that's how I see it :)

[Drunkard]

You fellows are jumping to conclusions. You realize you're saying a product is going to fail when:

1. It's in it's first stages. It's much better to make a product doing only what it claims and letting the people using it tell you what they want to make it better. Sure they could have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink but if only for name, and nobody uses most the features, then it's pointless. Who knows, This product might end up replacing your notebook. I guarantee you a new hardware company doesn't start by making blow-you-away hardware. You have to give it time to develop.

2. You haven't used it yet. The product isn't being sold, you haven't even touched it. You're basing an entire opinion on photos and other people's reviews.

3. The details are very sketchy. You don't know all the hardware and software specifications, so once again, you have already developed an opinion without knowing critical things about the product.

4. Palm isn't stupid. They wouldn't decide to make a whole new product line because they felt like it. This is a huge expansion, not just another device.

I'm not saying the product will succeed, all I'm saying is wait until you know what's going on to make an opinion. I'm befuddled how you can one second you love Palm because of something they've done, and the next you're condemning them to death simply because of lack of knowledge.

Well that's how I see it :)

I agree with you completely. Way too many people are saying way too much, way too early.

[archangel]

I agree with you completely. Way too many people are saying way too much, way too early.
Some of this is Palm's fault. They haven't given us much information and what they have said isn't very encouraging.

I will be very happy if this devices exceeds expectation. I don't want Palm to fail and I hope this device ends up being something I want to buy and more importantly lots of business users.

However, Hawkins hasn't helped things with that demo. A device that chugs on Flash video and has the creator saying he wishes it was more powerful does not inspire confidence.

[I love my mom]

Some of this is Palm's fault. They haven't given us much information and what they have said isn't very encouraging.

I will be very happy if this devices exceeds expectation. I don't want Palm to fail and I hope this device ends up being something I want to buy and more importantly lots of business users.

However, Hawkins hasn't helped things with that demo. A device that chugs on Flash video and has the creator saying he wishes it was more powerful does not inspire confidence.

Now you can't exactly blame that on palm. They may not want to give you information for a number of reasons. Maybe because they don't know themselves or because they want to work on it more. They maybe have wanted opinions, but I don't think they wanted premature condemnations.

He he, that Hawkins demo was kind of wierd wasn't it? He may have just been trying to get people to push that idea, or see what they wanted.

[Jimmie Geddes]

"4. Palm isn't stupid. They wouldn't decide to make a whole new product line because they felt like it. This is a huge expansion, not just another device."

LifeDrive Mobile Manager, there were supposed to be more Mobile Managers. The LifeDrive was a new category. There were handhelds, smartphones, and mobile managers.
Take a look at this page Palm listed the categories and it said Mobile Managers. Mobile Managers never took off.
http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilemanagers/lifedrive/

Looks like Mobile Managers have been replaced by Mobile Companions.

http://www.palm.com/us/products/index.html

[thenrik]

Hey Alan:

When I look at the forums list at 1src, right to my left, as I'm writing this, I see a list of PDAs. This is a site for people who like PDAs, apparently not you since you refer to us as negative PDAces and nuts. Your podcasts and editorials point out that we're not Palm's customer target and seem to only focus on Treos. Why do you spend your time here? There's a Treo forum called Treocentral. Try and clean up your own negativity.

Tom

[holvoetn]

Hey Alan:

When I look at the forums list at 1src, right to my left, as I'm writing this, I see a list of PDAs. This is a site for people who like PDAs, apparently not you since you refer to us as negative PDAces and nuts. Your podcasts and editorials point out that we're not Palm's customer target and seem to only focus on Treos. Why do you spend your time here? There's a Treo forum called Treocentral. Try and clean up your own negativity.

TomThis was totally unnecessary and unfair.
What, if I may ask so, have YOU done for the PDA-only community ?
You got a long way to go, I would think ...

[archangel]

This was totally unnecessary and unfair.
What, if I may ask so, have YOU done for the PDA-only community ?
You got a long way to go, I would think ...
Please. I don't totally agree with the comments by the previous poster, but when you do a podcast for a PDA enthusiast site and you constantly call that userbase wingnuts because they are PDA enthusiasts and not average joe business users you are open to some criticism. He and Kirvin both have a dislike for the old Cliesource members that comes through in the podcasts and we are allowed to express some dislike in those comments considering we are the foundation for this site.

[Alan G]

Hey Alan:

When I look at the forums list at 1src, right to my left, as I'm writing this, I see a list of PDAs. This is a site for people who like PDAs, apparently not you since you refer to us as negative PDAces and nuts. Your podcasts and editorials point out that we're not Palm's customer target and seem to only focus on Treos. Why do you spend your time here? There's a Treo forum called Treocentral. Try and clean up your own negativity.

Tom

Those people who have been listening to my podcasts for the last 2+ years know that I use the term "wingnuts" jokingly. Long time listenerns and readers of this and the other Palm community sites that I am a member of also know that I harbor no negativity toward PDA users.

I am also aware of the list of devices along the left column of the 1SRC nav bar. I own many of the devices in that list.

The fact of the matter is that I have no problem with people who use PDAs to get stuff done. At this point, PDA sales only make up about 20% of Palm's overall sales. People still buy Z22s, E2s, and TXs which is why Palm still supports and sells them.

My problem is with people who refuse to believe that PDA sales are shrinking year over year and blame Palm for not pushing the PDA form factor. Palm's focus is on the Treo now. That is the flagship line at Palm. The Foleo is being positioned as an accessory to the Treo, but if you listen to Jeff Hawkins and Ed Colligan talk about the future of mobile computing, you get a sense that there is much much more in the works.

Not everyone needs or requires the same device. If a PDA works for you that is fine with me.

Alan G

[Dick Tracy]

Would all of you please grow up?

Foleo was not what I expected. I don't have a Treo. My TX is heavily used and has close to 80 third-party applications. I am not a gamer or videohound. I do not fit into mass market. I no longer march the corporate march. I have no need to spend my time (or waste other peoples' time) whining and pouting that Palm let me down. They merely introduced something for a different customer base.

Probably 90% of PDA and Treo users barely scratch the surface of what their device of capable of and would never touch foot in a forum like this. Have any of you ever been to the Palm Help Forums to get a look at what the average Palm User seeking help does with their device? Have you ever experienced satsifaction from helping a truly bewildered beginner? We here are so far off the scale from the typical customer and have possibly lost touch with the rest of the world.

Foleo has a market and it is probably not us. I'm mulling the possibility of getting one one when I know more about the specs. I am not going to lose any sleep or get into any flamewar about your personal issues. As a business, it is in Palm's interest to serve what they see as their best revenue opportunity, not the niche hobbyist. Stop being so self-important; you're not.

[Alan G]

He and Kirvin both have a dislike for the old Cliesource members that comes through in the podcasts and we are allowed to express some dislike in those comments considering we are the foundation for this site.

I would like to remind all of the members of 1SRC that I own a Clie NZ-90. The top-end $800 device. I'm entitled to my opinions. If you look at my bio info to the left of any of my posts, you'll see that I've been a member of 1SRC since 2003...back when it was called ClieSource.

While I do agree with Jeff Kirvin, the original host and editorialist here, on some topics, I am not on the same page with him with regard to PDAs. I have been using Palm's PDAs since 1999. I own almost all of Palm's devices. I see them as being less relevant these days. Again, long time listeners of the 1SRC podcast and my original Palm Powered podcast, Tech Talk, know that I still see a small group of people who just don't want a smartphone and prefer a PDA. I'm fine with that. To each his own.

Alan G

[holvoetn]

Please. I don't totally agree with the comments by the previous poster, but when you do a podcast for a PDA enthusiast site and you constantly call that userbase wingnuts because they are PDA enthusiasts and not average joe business users you are open to some criticism. He and Kirvin both have a dislike for the old Cliesource members that comes through in the podcasts and we are allowed to express some dislike in those comments considering we are the foundation for this site.... and he also bashes at the T3-cultists of which I happen to be one.
Do I care ? No, because it was said with 'tongue-in-cheek' (and I have a very think skin).
Disliking comments is one thing, discussing those same comments is highly encouraged.

Getting personal is another thing which I personally will never let pass.

Can we please now get on with the show ?

BTW just finished listening to the podcast, Alan. Great idea to get both Tyler and Jimmy on the show, it adds some 'special sauce' ;)

[archangel]

My problem is with people who refuse to believe that PDA sales are shrinking year over year and blame Palm for not pushing the PDA form factor. Palm's focus is on the Treo now. That is the flagship line at Palm. The Foleo is being positioned as an accessory to the Treo, but if you listen to Jeff Hawkins and Ed Colligan talk about the future of mobile computing, you get a sense that there is much much more in the works.

Alan G
My problem is people who refuse to believe that Palm is quickly losing that Treo market. Sure the PDA is dead and Palm doesn't want our business. The problem is they didn't bother to take care of their business class market either and the Treo is quickly becoming irrelevant as a smart phone.

The Foleo is not a solution to their dying smartphone market. It is simply another disaster for a company that needs to find some way to compete with the Blackberry, Blackjack and now the iPhone. The Foleo only reinforces how lost they are as a company.

BTW, they might still have a PDA market if they had put even a single shred of effort into keeping it. Could they really expect to sell devices like the Lifedrive that are that overpriced and that buggy and unreliable.

[ewah]

My problem is people who refuse to believe that Palm is quickly losing that Treo market. Sure the PDA is dead and Palm doesn't want our business. The problem is they didn't bother to take care of their business class market either and the Treo is quickly becoming irrelevant as a smart phone.


Exactly. Alan says the PDA market is 20% of palm's business now, it would probably be 30-40% had they not lost customers like myself who have been forced to look elsewhere for there PDA fix. I too believe palm is not going to be able to compete with the likes of nokia, samsung, etc. These companies put out more phones in one month than palm does in a year, and they are different designs with different features to attract different styles of customers, Palm has one product and now one major accessories for that one product. Or in other words a house of cards.

[I love my mom]

Tk tk tk. You guys are having at it today :)

Great podcast alan! (He he, that fellow with the accent cracks me up, he's always got something to say, but all that I hear is 'uh' or 'Trao' ;))

[I love my mom]

Exactly. Alan says the PDA market is 20% of palm's business now, it would probably be 30-40% had they not lost customers like myself who have been forced to look elsewhere for there PDA fix. I too believe palm is not going to be able to compete with the likes of nokia, samsung, etc. These companies put out more phones in one month than palm does in a year, and they are different designs with different features to attract different styles of customers, Palm has one product and now one major accessories for that one product. Or in other words a house of cards.

Oh come on. Samsung and Nokia have put out about 1 smartphone device in the past 3 years. Palm has got over 3 this year. I personally know over 100 people that have bought a Treo over Blackberry, Blackjack, or any other phone of the like for compatibility reasons. Sure these aren't your average users, but business people, but if that's who the market is going to, that's who they'll sell to or direct their devices at.

My 2 cents :) I'm fresh out now

[Alan G]

BTW just finished listening to the podcast, Alan. Great idea to get both Tyler and Jimmy on the show, it adds some 'special sauce'

There was a mad scramble to book Jimmie and Tyler on the show once I realized that we were looking at a product announcement. Luckily, both were free to do the show. It is always a lot of fun to have Jimmie and Tyler on.

Alan G

[ewah]

Oh come on. Samsung and Nokia have put out about 1 smartphone device in the past 3 years. Palm has got over 3 this year. I personally know over 100 people that have bought a Treo over Blackberry, Blackjack, or any other phone of the like for compatibility reasons. Sure these aren't your average users, but business people, but if that's who the market is going to, that's who they'll sell to or direct their devices at.

My 2 cents :) I'm fresh out now

My bad, I don't distinguish between what some call smart phones and regular cell phones. A cell phone is a cell phone is a cell phone, period. So restated Nokia is giving cell phone users more choices than palm. In other words if I'm a person looking for a cell phone palm offers one product, the other manufacturers offer many many more.

[archangel]

There is some hope for the wingnuts like myself that won't pay $600 for an email reader.

Hawkins did an interview with CNET and said mostly the same stuff we have already heard, but added this.

"This (Foleo) is a step up for a person who loves this (Treo). That's how you sell your first 100,000 or 200,000 or 300,000 or whatever it is. Very quickly, and this is a key part of the strategy, is to get a lot of people writing software. We've started disclosing to developers. We are going to have about 10 or 12 people who have products when we ship. We are going to actively recruit developers. Over time, it is going to become more.

Did the Pilot ever become a full personal computer? No. Did it replace the PC? No, that was never the objective. But it became a lot more than an organizer. And the Foleo is going to be a lot more than an e-mail smart-phone companion."

Bingo. I won't debate the selling 300,000 quickly thing as insane as it sounds. I hope Hawkins is right on that. The important part is that last sentence. That is what I want from them. Sell this thing as an email companion, but give it the ability to be much more. If I drop my $500 on this it will be for that 3rd party software to expand it to a unique entity all its own. Microsoft tried and failed with this with Windows CE, but with the Palm/Linux software community behind it writing software this thing could be the laptop replacement that devices like the IBM Z50 tried to be in the late 90s.

BTW, this is also an interesting quote for those of us that want a full screen Treo.

"We all struggle with this issue--you want to make this thing (the Treo) smaller. You want the screen to be bigger. You want the keyboard to be nonexistent, but you need to type. There's all these really difficult tradeoffs. Look at what Apple's doing. They decided to punt the keyboard. Steve Jobs thinks that's great. I don't know. We'll find out. We all struggle with the same problems.

I don't want to reveal too much. But I can now think through the problem differently. I can think through tradeoffs. Well, if I have something with a bigger screen and a keyboard--whether it looks like this (Foleo) or something else--where I can view and manipulate data, does it change how I design this guy (pointing to Treo)? Yes. "

The whole interview is here
http://news.com.com/The+best+idea+Jeff+Hawkins+ever+had/2008-1041_3-6188188.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1040_3-0-5&subj=news

[holvoetn]

Look, it is rather simple from my point of view.
The thing runs Linux. So one way or the other there will ALWAYS be SW to be added to this machine.

And exactly THAT SW is what is going to make this thing fly.

We had an article at Brighthand where a lot of the moderators could predict what they tought this device was going to be. I was not that far off. I guessed it was going to be a clamshell type device, no smartphone, with full keyboard and running Linux (OK, I thought it was going to be Palm OS II but that's close enough).

Will it be a device for everybody ? Definitely no ! But guess what ? No company makes a device that is suitable for everyone. Every device has its specific features targetting a specific market share.

I also used to be a PDA only user but then something changed. I got the opportunity to get free public transport to work. So I had all of a sudden a lot more time available at the train using my T3. But I also wanted to check my mails. So I messed around a while trying to connect my T3 over IR to my GSM to do dial-up. Then I got a 680 and it was for me like a world going open. I always advocated against going converged and look where I am now.

Same with Foleo. I will most likely not buy it because of the price (but who knows what opportunities will present itself ?). But I do see quite some situations where it might be of use to me.
And I guess there are literally hundredths of thousands of others who see that too ...

[Jimmie Geddes]

The most important thing that came out of the Foleo that will benefit Palm OS fans is what Jeff Hawkins said; "The great thing about this product (is that) it's like we're back completely in control again. We have complete control of the operating system. We have complete control over the software suite. I love that. I've been wanting to get back completely in control again."

http://news.com.com/The+best+idea+Jeff+Hawkins+ever+had/2008-1041_3-6188188.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1040_3-0-5&subj=news

The Foleo might not be the device for everyone, but it's what's inside the device that is Palm's future, and according to Jeff he's excited about it. He's done a few great things in the past:) So I'm expecting great things for the future.

[Modnar]

Great podcast again alan and good to here the other 2 as well and yeah it did cheer me up after not seeing the foleo in a good way the first time!

[Alan G]

Sorry gang,

It looks like the Treo 700p MR for Sprint customers has been delayed (again) to Monday, June 4th for Sprint customers. The news for 700p customers on Verizon Wireless received some bad news though. According to Palm,

We don't have a specific date for when the 700p MR will be available for Verizon Wireless users at this time.

This is very likely the work of Verizon, otherwise, why release the Sprint edition MR and not the VZW edition MR?

The full post to Palm's corporate blog can be read here (http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/06/700p_mr_timing.html).

Alan G

[rcartwr]

Good podcast all. I am going to try really hard to reserve final judgement on the Foleo till I can fondle one and see what the final specs are. Considering ship time from the Asian sweat....production facilities, the production run is either about to start or they are loading on a ship right about now. Kinda wonder how those 3rd party devs are going to be loaded on the machine. I see now why Palm has started letting you load the ROM refreshes from the SD card.

I have mentioned elsewhere that for the 40 something exec that can't deal with the small screen and wants to lighten the carry on bag load, it might just sell. We will see.

[BrentDC]

Who knows maybe someone will get FireFox running on it? then I'll start getting interested.

[Jimmie Geddes]

I am also going to reserve my feelings until I get my hands on a Foleo. I've already spoken to a few 3rd party developers and they do have plans to support the Foleo, but will not go on the record yet.

[LupeValenz]

I pray one of the is PocketTunes!

[Alan G]

I see now why Palm has started letting you load the ROM refreshes from the SD card.

That would seem like a good idea. Test it out on the Treo and then include it on the Foleo. Loading ROM images via SD card and card reader has the advantage of being faster to load on the Treo. HotSync'ing a ROM upgrade down to the device can take forever. Copying a 15MB file to a card and then running the update from the card somehow seems faster and easier. Now, if I had a ROM upgrade to test with... :rolleyes:

I have mentioned elsewhere that for the 40 something exec that can't deal with the small screen and wants to lighten the carry on bag load, it might just sell. We will see.

I think it is going to be a hit with this crowd.

Alan G

[Alan G]

Who knows maybe someone will get FireFox running on it? then I'll start getting interested.

FireFox already runs on Linux, so this should be an easy port. And even it FireFox doesn't make the jump right away, Opera is a huge improvement over Blazer!

Alan G

[holvoetn]

Copying a 15MB file to a card and then running the update from the card somehow seems faster and easier. Now, if I had a ROM upgrade to test with... :rolleyes: You can always go out and get an AT&T 680 to try :D
Oh wait ... you want one for your 700p ? Ah well, "patience is a virtue" as they say ;)

[Alan G]

You can always go out and get an AT&T 680 to try

Don't temp me, I may just do it. LOL

Alan G

[BrentDC]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the vibe I'm getting. This Foleo launch seems a bit underwhelming, because it is. This product seems like it will attract just enough customers to convince developers to make software for it, and that's what will make it great. I think palm has designed this OS to be easily ported to (from other Linux flavors) so making software for it should be easy. Once they have a Treo companion with a keyboard, the need for a thumboard disappears, and the Treo will adopt 320*480. Also Palm will ditch Garnet and scale down this new Linux OS and open new opportunities for the Treo.

If Palm does this, it doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[Alan G]

Welcome Brent. You now see why the Foleo really is a cool product.

Alan G

[archangel]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the vibe I'm getting. This Foleo launch seems a bit underwhelming, because it is. This product seems like it will attract just enough customers to convince developers to make software for it, and that's what will make it great. I think palm has designed this OS to be easily ported to (from other Linux flavors) so making software for it should be easy. Once they have a Treo companion with a keyboard, the need for a thumboard disappears, and the Treo will adopt 320*480. Also Palm will ditch Garnet and scale down this new Linux OS and open new opportunities for the Treo.

If Palm does this, it doesn't sound like a bad idea.
This is the impression I got from the Hawkins interview with CNET. He obviously couldn't give out a lot of details about changes to the Treo, but he definitely seemed to be saying exactly what you have posted above.

I really hope this is how it all plays out. If it does then the Foleo could easily become the laptop replacement I want and the Treo could finally become the device many around here have wanted for years. It could be a win for everyone. I'm really hoping Hawkins pulls it off, but we will know more as more info is released on the full specs of the Foleo and future Treos.

[g-funkster]

If the Foleo gets a decent RDP (Terminal Services) client, I'd consider getting it. I used a terminal services client on my nokia 770 (linux) tablet and it was lacking lots of features and extremely buggy... but what it did accomplish, it did really well.

The linux 'community' needs help, Jeff H. made a good point that this is a promising way of getting those developers to create something where the result might produce financial benefits for them (IE: shareware). As it stands, people (including those in the podcast this week) assume Linux = a plethora of applications. This was just not true, and nearly every application that was ported over was incomplete and buggy primarily because there's no real incentive for devs to complete their work.

[Alan G]

If the Foleo gets a decent RDP (Terminal Services) client, I'd consider getting it.

When you say "RDP" are you talking about a remote desktop protocol like those available on the Windows and Macintosh systems? I'm thinking that you might be able to use Virtual Network Computing (VNC). There are already clients for Mac, Windows, Linux, and Palm OS. I'm sure there is a Windows Mobile version, but I've never gone looking for it.

The linux 'community' needs help, Jeff H. made a good point that this is a promising way of getting those developers to create something where the result might produce financial benefits for them (IE: shareware). As it stands, people (including those in the podcast this week) assume Linux = a plethora of applications. This was just not true, and nearly every application that was ported over was incomplete and buggy primarily because there's no real incentive for devs to complete their work.

I totally agree. The Linux software that I've used, and I've been support Linux based SQL servers, has always seemed half baked or required complex command line strings to get stuff to work. Now, I'm all for command lines, but more Linux distros need a commercial grade UI like Mac OS X. Palm's Foleo UI may just provide the right mix of utility and ease of use to make it a platform that people will be able to write complete commercial/shareware applications for.

Alan G

[JAmerican]

We are looking at this thing as if we have a list of hardware specifications for it. Just because Firefox is for Linux, and other applications is for linux does not mean that its extremely easy to port over. Who will port it over? Also, how fast is the processor? YouTube lags on the Fooleo for goodness sake so that means the processor must be in the 300MHz range like the Nokia N800.

As I've said it was rushed! Palm does not listen to their customers because if they did, we'd see a TX phone. People are downplaying this because Palm expects people to buy an email accessory for a device they said would be the only thing you need. While I have higher hopes for the Foleo, if they don't listen to us, then its not worth buying. Look at how Palm handles their MR update for the 700p. Why do they keep delaying that?? They know that the users have the device so they only really care about getting new users. Thats why the 680 and 755p does not have the same issue.

I am tired of hearing this BS about not being in their target market. Well then they are not getting my money. I will get a device that works for me not make it work for me. M$ has a variety of devices because they understand that everyone is different. Just because you remove an antenna from a Treo and tell people to get the companion to it does not make it any different. Its still the same fat, Garnet-ridden Treo.

I think people buy Palm devices for the wrong reasons. Palm devices are the only ones with the Palm OS on them and so they have no choice. While when their was competition in the OS 5.2 days, there was competition and so Palm actually had to make their devices work. To call people with PDAs running 5.2 cultists shows how dedicated they are to keeping their working device up instead of getting a laggy and buggy TX. The TH55 is still running strong for some users even more so than my TX and the TH55 is older than it.

My point is that Palm has dropped the ball. They've disappointed most of us. We want to see an iPhone competitor running the new OS. We are tired of NVFS lag and FrankenGarnet. Foleo will not be useful until you take the time to make it a device worth buying.

As the current Palm Treo users like to call people CLIE or T3 cultists, I think their more Palm apologists than anything else. That's why they will buy it just because they see Palm on it or excuse the continued delay of the MR update.

JAmerican

[Alan G]

Look at how Palm handles their MR update for the 700p. Why do they keep delaying that??

You can thank the delays on Sprint and Verizon.



I am tired of hearing this BS about not being in their target market. Well then they are not getting my money. I will get a device that works for me not make it work for me.

OK, I'm cool with that. You don't have to buy a Treo, a Foleo, or anything else that doesn't work for you.

My point is that Palm has dropped the ball. They've disappointed most of us.

I'm actually very happy with my Treo. If it isn't for you, it isn't for you. Stop telling me.

As the current Palm Treo users like to call people CLIE or T3 cultists, I think their more Palm apologists than anything else.

I openly admin I have a T3 and a Clie. I've used them both and the Treo. I prefer the Treo. Again, to each his or her own. If you want to use a PDA that's fine with me. Palm isn't about making PDAs anymore.

Alan G

[BrentDC]

@JA

I'm going out on a limb here, Palm will be releasing a TX smartphone, the Foleo is a stepping stone for that. If you read the Treo Central Jeff Hawkins interview you will know what I mean.

[tk_421]

If you want to use a PDA that's fine with me. Palm isn't about making PDAs anymore.

Alan G


The Treo is a PDA, just one with a cell radio. Some people call them smartphones, others PDA phones.

The debate here has nothing to do with the cell radio. There is a very small minority of users who would prefer a separate phone and PDA. (Aside from missing calls from unstability, I cannot understand their motives, but to each his own.)

The real debate here is screen size and the inclusion of wifi. The current Treos have screens that are WAY too small to surf the web, read an ebook, watch multimedia, do word processing, etc... 90% of people who buy Treos use them as Blackberries with phone. The Foleo will not correct this problem, because it won't fit in my pockets.

The iphone changed the equation: big TX-like screens will become very fashionable, as opposed to geeky-looking like we see them now. There is a considerable market for people who would choose an iphone form factor over the current Treos, just like some people prefer the TX over the Z22.

Hawkins has admited that the Treo's screen is too small for even its main purpose: mobile e-mail. The solution is not to creat soem external screen and keyboard. Just make the damn screen bigger and call it fashionable, for crying out loud! The TX screen is plenty huge for writing e-mail.

A Treo-TX would have been a serious contender against the iphone. Palm will be too late simply because they lacked vision.

My TX should last me until a Garnet emulator is out for the iphone, or the mythical Treo-TX is released by Palm. NOT because I am a PDA wingnut, but because the Treo's screen is way too small, and it doesn't have wifi. Judging from all the comments on forums AND the hype over the iphone, it looks like I am not the only person who feels that way.

[ballistic]

OK, I'm cool with that. You don't have to buy a Treo, a Foleo, or anything else that doesn't work for you.

Exactly.

After last night's 1src chat, it's becoming pretty clear that Palm's biggest problem with the Foleo is that a lot of people had unrealistic expectations that the "Hawk" was going to be their ideal device.

It's impossible to make single device or category of devices that appeals to everyone.

There are several reasons why Palm came out with this device, and why it resembles an ultra-portable Windows based laptop. Here's a big clue for those of you stuck on this: The Foleo is not a full fledged, general purpose computing, ultra-portable running Windows....

Here's another clue, from Jeff Hawkins's Oral History (http://www.cwhonors.org/archives/histories/Hawkins.pdf) (page 34, warning-PDF Link):

I really dislike Windows software. I really think it’s a disservice in many ways; the way the industry’s turned out is unfortunate. And there’s a theme in my life, by the way, which I really want to correct this. I want to correct- underlying a lot of this, besides the brain work, another theme (maybe this is one of the questions we get to at the end here) is really how do you make personal computers that are better and useful for a larger audience.

While Palm is saying the Foleo won't replace a laptop now, some day in the future, it probably will for a significant number of users.

Starting to get the big picture now?

Check out this blog post (http://chadman.vox.com/library/post/why-i-think-the-palm-foleo-is-brilliant.html) by chadman (http://www.1src.com/forums/member.php?find=lastposter&t=125507) and the comment by Palm's very own Ben Combee that echos my observation in last nights chat about using a laptop while flying:

This is Ben Combee, one of the tech leads at Palm on the Foleo project. This is a really good summary of our argument in favor of the device, and it actually summarizes how I've used my own development device when I've been on the Palm campus. I'm finally able to use it in public now that we've announced -- I was on a plane back to Austin last night and pulled it out to read an e-book in the PDF viewer and make some notes. When the drink service came, I just closed it and put it in the seatback pocket, then was able to instantly pick up where I left off later.

The Foleo will meet a basic set of unmet needs today for mobile professionals and heavy email users. We're still unsure about music fans though ;).

Brian

[ewah]

You can thank the delays on Sprint and Verizon.
Alan G

One of my points exactly, palm customer happiness now depends on a third party, and is no longer in palm control.

[LupeValenz]

Palm better hurry up and improve on this Foleo because MSoft is developing flasch cache as well for the instant on and off so thats will be one less feature from Palm. Sure the price will steep for the new computers but still, Palm won't be able to tout that on/off feature when others are using it as well.

[ewah]

The debate here has nothing to do with the cell radio. There is a very small minority of users who would prefer a separate phone and PDA. (Aside from missing calls from unstability, I cannot understand their motives, but to each his own.)


As someone who prefers the separation of a cell phone and my pda I'll list my reasons.

1. To me cell phones are disposable. I might take it to the beach, camping, bike riding, I might lose it, damage it, let a friend borrow it. I can't or won't do that if the device also contains my life.

2. I like being able to set my cell phone down in speaker mode, pull out my pda and use it to take notes while on a phone call, try that on any combined device. Maybe it's possible but it isn't a better solution for me.

3. I hate, hate the way cell phone companies treat their customers. I try and deal with them as little as possible. I would LOVE my pda to have a cell connection if I didn't have to deal with the providers. To me wifi is just good enough to get me by. If wimax ever becomes a reality (and this doesn't include sprint (or any other cell company) rolling it out, that is just a play from the same team on a new field) it will kill off the cell phone companies. I want city wide open wimax, let all devices compete on a level playing field and watch the innovation, the freedom, maybe then I'll combine my devices but I doubt it, see reason 1.

Hopefully this helps you understand atleast why I prefer two devices.

[g-funkster]

2. I like being able to set my cell phone down in speaker mode, pull out my pda and use it to take notes while on a phone call, try that on any combined device. Maybe it's possible but it isn't a better solution for me.
It is totally possible to press the speakerphone button on the Treo and switch to the memo app. Much simpler than with two devices, not to mention the Treo's keyboard allows you to do all of this with just one hand.

[g-funkster]

1. To me cell phones are disposable. I might take it to the beach, camping, bike riding, I might lose it, damage it, let a friend borrow it. I can't or won't do that if the device also contains my life. Well, if that is a big concern for you then you can own a GSM device and flip the SIM card to a normal phone when you go biking.

As for everything else, there are advantages. If you are 1 year from your purchase and your device breaks, walk into a Sprint store (or whatever your carrier) and they'll swap your broken device on the spot.

If you pay $6 a month like a lot of us do, then you can have insurance and that will protect your device with the carrier for as long as you pay for it, and that covers hardware defects and loss such as if your device is stolen. Does your warranty cover this? (Not to mention that many people have gotten devices upgraded for free [like 600 to 650] when older devices get discontinued.)

[ewah]

It is totally possible to press the speakerphone button on the Treo and switch to the memo app. Much simpler than with two devices, not to mention the Treo's keyboard allows you to do all of this with just one hand.

Until you want to surf the web, lookup contacts,etc. The palm still doesn't multitask well.

[ewah]

Well, if that is a big concern for you then you can own a GSM device and flip the SIM card to a normal phone when you go biking.

As for everything else, there are advantages. If you are 1 year from your purchase and your device breaks, walk into a Sprint store (or whatever your carrier) and they'll swap your broken device on the spot.

If you pay $6 a month like a lot of us do, then you can have insurance and that will protect your device with the carrier for as long as you pay for it, and that covers hardware defects and loss such as if your device is stolen. Does your warranty cover this? (Not to mention that many people have gotten devices upgraded for free [like 600 to 650] when older devices get discontinued.)

All true but you missed my point. It isn't the cost of the phone that I'm worried about, it's the information in the smart phone that I may or may not be able to get back if the phone is lost, or if someone is a snoop and I let them borrow it, etc.