Palmgear is at it Again

[cbulock]

Theres been a lot of posts recently about troubles with Palm Gear. I've quit buying from there themself, but I saw this thread (http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13531) at PalmInfoCenter and thought that it might intrest some people. Sorry if this has already been brought up in another thread. Anyhow, it seems PalmGear is going to start charging devlopers for not following their terms (which change all the time with no notice). I know that Kenny West and a number of other Palm Gear people frequent these boards alot, so I would like to hear a response about this.

Heres a quote from PalmGears site:


If you fail to comply with any of the Terms of Submission, PalmGear shall have the right to immediately delist the non-compliant software, or, at its option, require the payment of a penalty fee of up to $2.00 per downloaded copy through PalmGear of non-compliant software in order for the non-compliant software to remain listed. These remedies are without prejudice to any other remedies that PalmGear may have in law or equity.

[T1000X]

Gee, sounds like another one of their attempts to make money. Before we pass judgement (like many of us already have ;-) it would be nice if we had the detailed information as to what the violations would be. It sounds like Palmgear is getting to be a big corporation with no regards or apparent consideration for their customers or the developers.

[jmg_NX21]

*WOW*

That is evil. *IMO*

I hope this is NOT for shareware or freeware, WHAT a stiff penalty.

NOTE to self: ALWAYS read the fine print...

[Shrink]

What's wrong with that? It seems reasonable to me and no different from the small print or fast talking "disclamers" of most other products/services.
alan

[PalmDeveloper]

Originally posted by Shrink
What's wrong with that? It seems reasonable to me and no different from the small print or fast talking "disclamers" of most other products/services.
alan


You dont want to know the full story..trust me... Palmgear is starting to be... --well just really weird.


I am a developer and the developer community is starting to move away from palmgear because of actions they have taken lately. Many of us are talking about delisting their software from Palmgear totally.


And about this new agreement, Palmgear put up a new partner agreement that says that www.palmgear.com is the ONLY website that can be presented to the user inside the Palm applications.


Say I have a company called PalmSoftwareApps we can no longer write things like:


- Copyright PalmSoftwareApps.com or
- This application was created by PalmSoftwareApps or
- Get support from support@palmsoftwareapps.com or
- For samples on how to use this app go to www.PalmSoftwareApps.com.


If we to do so then, according to this new "partner" agreement, they can charge us developers $2 per downloaded copy of our application. Yes, you read correctly. They dont even have to notify us that we dont comply and they are the one counting the downloads.


They are changing the text in the agreement each day - the latest addition is this $2 "penalty fee for non-compliance" - without nofitying us developers of the change, and without changing the date of the agreement.


I dont know what have happened to Palmgear lately. With the takeover from PBH Holdings the changes we start to see now is very frightening. One of the developers complained openly about this new agreement, and that same day his application was delisted from the "Essentials" directory at Palmgear where it had been listed for many years.


You cant even talk back since you will be "punished". That is why I am not posting my name in this post.


And what has happened to Kenny West? We dont recognize him anymore, he have changed very much since the takeover. He wrote a letter to all of us where he "explained" how these changes
would only BENEFIT us. It was quite a sad email to read I must say.


One of the developers thought that Kenny reminded him of the Iraqi Information Minister with that email... and it was not far away from it I must say.


And as a last note I should tell you that Palmgear still owes most of us developers for the sales from January- May 2002. They kept all the $ you paid for software during that period at least me have not seen a penny of that money yet.


They claimed to be bankrupt, the next month they were offering one brand new Tungsten T give away each day of that month.


I dont know what you users think of all this, feel free to write whatever you think.


For me it feels like we are trapped inside a movie with a very bad storyline, and we are probably going to delist all of our software from Palmgear. The money they owe us we will probably never see.

[Wolfsmoke]

From the user side, I don't care much for the "log in every time you want to download something" routine. And the unsolicited PalmGear email was nasty icing on the cake. That, combined with this "We make the rules, we won't tell you when they change, but we'll punish you for breaking them" mentality... I think I'll hunt for software elsewhere.

[aaronrkelly]

www.handango.com

[Serotta]

Obviously, PG is struggling financially, and have been for quite awhile. Somebody is trying to come up with a business model that will theoretically give the investors the desired return. Developers and customers have to decide for themselves if it is worth the trade-off. IMO, not being able to list where to go for support will only hurt software sales for the developer in the long run. So as far as I'm concerned, I make every effort to purchase directly from the developer. If I can't do that, PG has been my choice over HandDango, but maybe this will change, although they do much the same thing. Are there other sources for Palm software?

[PalmDeveloper]

Originally posted by Serotta
Obviously, PG is struggling financially, and have been for quite awhile.

They said they were struggling once, and the probably wer struggling about a year ago. Now they are not. This agreement is only intended to make them more money (to their new owners) but, as usual, they jsut F*** up. Excuse the language, but that us that thwy are doing indeed.

Originally posted by Serotta . Are there other sources for Palm software? [/B]

There are sites like www.pdagreen.com, www.pdatopsoft.com and www.pdassi.de for a few examples. We will be moving our apps to some of these places, and so are many other developers.


Originally posted by Serotta .
If I can't do that, PG has been my choice over HandDango, but maybe this will change, although they do much the same thing. [/B]

Palmgear have always been our choice too in the past. They were seen as the Good guys and Handango as the Bad Guys. Now this has changed all together. We have no hard feeling with Handango but only bad, very bad feelings for Palmgear.

[excelir5]

IMHO, Maybe it's time for The Clie Source to become more active in it's offerings under the Applications Section. The Clie Source, since I've been coming here, has diversified and grown, maybe it's time for more growth to fill this nasty little void.

I assume that the Clie Source gets some amount of money from the cases and such that they sell, why not software as well. I know that it would mean a huge jump in Bandwidth and Server Space, but if the Big Boys can't conduct themselves properly, maybe The Cliesource should show them how to do it.

What's your opinion???

[tanker_bob]

I became involved with this same discussion topic on PDA Avenue, and specifically recommended that developers post here since Kenny seems to answer posts on the Source. I'll be interested to see his response to this.

For those who don't have the details, here is what is purported to be part of the new agreement:

- You will reference PalmGear as the exclusive point of sale method within any information or text files submitted to PalmGear for your software, and within any Info, About, Register, "Nag," reminder, or any similar screen that requires, encourages or contains information about unlocking, registering, upgrading, or otherwise taking any action required of any listed software that requires payment to activate, use, or unlock or is otherwise not free, including any free software that may require other purchased software for installation.

- If you fail to comply with any of the Terms of Submission, PalmGear shall have the right to immediately delist the non-compliant software, or, at its option, require the payment of a penalty fee of up to $2.00 per downloaded copy through PalmGear of non-compliant software in order for the non-compliant software to remain listed. These remedies are without prejudice to any other remedies that PalmGear may have in law or equity.
This would clearly be unacceptable to nearly any developer. Looks like business suicide to me. I've been a PG support throughout the Q Ventures/Handago saga, but that good will only goes so far. I'm ready to abandon PalmGear if this is true and represents their intent to strongarm developers--going so far as to alter their program code to PG's benefit and user's detriment.

PG reps--any comment?

[tanker_bob]

I just emailed Kenny West about this thread and asked for his reply. I guess we'll see what happens next.

[Geckotek]

Wow, looks like I may be dumping YiShow and PalmGear all at once.

[Serotta]

"You will reference PalmGear as the exclusive point of sale method within any information or text files submitted to PalmGear for your software, and within any Info, About, Register, "Nag," reminder, or any similar screen that requires, encourages or contains information about unlocking, registering, upgrading, or otherwise taking any action required of any listed software that requires payment to activate, use, or unlock or is otherwise not free, including any free software that may require other purchased software for installation.

- If you fail to comply with any of the Terms of Submission, PalmGear shall have the right to immediately delist the non-compliant software, or, at its option, require the payment of a penalty fee of up to $2.00 per downloaded copy through PalmGear of non-compliant software in order for the non-compliant software to remain listed. These remedies are without prejudice to any other remedies that PalmGear may have in law or equity."

Is this different than what HanDango does? I know that they require registration to point to their site.

[*YellowRose*]

PalmDeveloper ~ first, thank you for being willing to discuss this with us . . . we appreciate it hugely whenever a developer drops by.

Second, if it's possible, please let other developers know that a quick blurb about new apps in the Apps Forum is always appreciated & useful (including, of course, a download/purchase site) . . . us Clie users LOVE playing with new software.

I agree with Tanker Bob about changing support/info information. That is truly horrendous [IF IT IS TRUE] . . . many developers' websites offer information that would be too complicated, or just plain impossible to put onto their sales page at PalmGear.

I'll spare you all my usual rant about PalmGear (if you want to see it search for PalmGear in the General Forum~you'll find it quite easily). All I can say [IF IT IS TRUE] is this is PATHETIC.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by tanker_bob
I just emailed Kenny West about this thread and asked for his reply. I guess we'll see what happens next.

I'm suprised there is nothing on the newsgroups about this new tactic. Like on comp.sys.palmtops.pilot

[cyclone]

- You will reference PalmGear as the exclusive point of sale method within any information or text files submitted to PalmGear for your software, and within any Info, About, Register, "Nag," reminder, or any similar screen that requires, encourages or contains information about unlocking, registering, upgrading, or otherwise taking any action required of any listed software that requires payment to activate, use, or unlock or is otherwise not free, including any free software that may require other purchased software for installation.

- If you fail to comply with any of the Terms of Submission, PalmGear shall have the right to immediately delist the non-compliant software, or, at its option, require the payment of a penalty fee of up to $2.00 per downloaded copy through PalmGear of non-compliant software in order for the non-compliant software to remain listed. These remedies are without prejudice to any other remedies that PalmGear may have in law or equity.

My non-lawyer reading of this suggests the following points:

The exclusive listing of PalmGear is only with regards to where to purchase the software or upgrades, and has no impact on listing support sites.
The $2 fee would only be charged if you violate these terms and choose to continue to have your software made available via PalmGear. This doesn't seem to be unreasonable; if you want to make use of PalmGear's hosting and audience, but aren't willing to abide by their terms, it'll cost you $2 per downloaded copy. The terms don't say that they will hit you with $2/copy for all copies previously downloaded.


I'm not a developer, but based on these two items I wouldn't be inclined to stop making use of PalmGear.

Bill

[anniebluesky]

Originally posted by excelir5
IMHO, Maybe it's time for The Clie Source to become more active in it's offerings under the Applications Section. The Clie Source, since I've been coming here, has diversified and grown, maybe it's time for more growth to fill this nasty little void.

I assume that the Clie Source gets some amount of money from the cases and such that they sell, why not software as well. I know that it would mean a huge jump in Bandwidth and Server Space, but if the Big Boys can't conduct themselves properly, maybe The Cliesource should show them how to do it.

What's your opinion???

I love this idea....one stop shopping:D

[OcellNuri]

It sounds to be like they start charging the two buck penalty without giving you a choice of whether to have your software unlisted or not.

"...PalmGear shall have the right to immediately delist the non-compliant software, or, AT ITS OPTION, require the payment of a penalty fee of up to $2.00 per downloaded copy..."

I'm no lawyer either though.

[Shrink]

Sounds to me like a lot of histrionics/hysteria over this. Why not wait till Kenny posts a response?
alan

[Beavis]

..." You will reference PalmGear as the exclusive point of sale method within any information or text files submitted to PalmGear for your software, and within any Info, About, Register, "Nag," reminder, or any similar screen that requires, encourages or contains information about unlocking, registering, upgrading, or otherwise taking any action required of any listed software that requires payment to activate, use, or unlock or is otherwise not free, including any free software that may require other purchased software for installation. "...


Well, my non-lawyer reading of this suggests that palmgear wants free advertising inside of your software. About screens, nag screens, registration screens, etc. must all have the mighty PalmGear web address on it. Failure to provide PalmGear with free advertising will result in a $2.00 penalty for each copy downloaded.

[cyclone]

Originally posted by OcellNuri
It sounds to be like they start charging the two buck penalty without giving you a choice of whether to have your software unlisted or not.

"...PalmGear shall have the right to immediately delist the non-compliant software, or, AT ITS OPTION, require the payment of a penalty fee of up to $2.00 per downloaded copy..."

I'm no lawyer either though.

You left out "in order for the non-compliant software to remain listed.". So it sounds like you can choose to not have the software listed and you won't owe $2...

Bill

[PalmDeveloper]

Originally posted by Unregistered


I'm suprised there is nothing on the newsgroups about this new tactic. Like on comp.sys.palmtops.pilot

I have never visited that newsgroup. For development purposes we use the forums hosted at palmsource and at falch.net.

For palm business issues, like this is, there is a private mailing list called PEF - Palm Entrepreneus Forum which we use. And believe me when I say that this topic have been discussed frequently at that and the PDF - which is a private forum for developers only.

I would say we have something like 500 posts or more on this issue.

[PalmDeveloper]

Originally posted by *YellowRose*
Second, if it's possible, please let other developers know that a quick blurb about new apps in the Apps Forum is always appreciated & useful (including, of course, a download/purchase site) . . . us Clie users LOVE playing with new software. [/B]

I will remember to do that.

QUOTE]Originally posted by *YellowRose*
I'll spare you all my usual rant about PalmGear (if you want to see it search for PalmGear in the General Forum~you'll find it quite easily). All I can say is this is PATHETIC. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. Like another developer recently put it:

"The only explanation I have to this is that someone at Palmgear have gone completely mad"

And another one suggested something completely different. That PBH Holdings have

http://www.ytechnology.com/sp101_killed.wav

and replaced him with an evil clone. *tries to smile a bit but remembers about this whole PG bs and stops instantly*

[Serotta]

PalmDeveloper,
How does this differ from what HanDango requires? Don't they also require all registration info to point to their site?

[Alistar]

I have bought software through Handango and I haven't seen the Handango name in the product.

[Temp Developer]

The problem is that PalmGear feels like they're being used as a free advertising site by the majority of developers and not getting their fair share in return. The concerns are:

- In the past, PalmGear stopped paying developers for 6 months. They are now paying back developers either over a 3 year period for a 100% return or over a shorter time period in return for keeping a portion of the past due amount (in effect either giving themselves a free loan or actually taking a bigger cut of the pie). Developers grumbled but went along because of their desire to keep PalmGear going.

- They recently listed this change that allows them to arbitratily decide to delist you or charge the $2/download. The number of downloads that might be hit with the $2 penalty is something that THEY will decide. They have NOT provided a mecanism for developers to review this and appeal - PalmGear is the final arbiter. (In fact, they listed a vague penalty on the 22nd of April, then pulled that line, then added it back in with the $2 figure on the 28th.)

- One developer who has complained loudly in the Palm Entrepreneur's Forum mailing list has had his application either pulled or significantly downgraded (no longer a "gear's choice"), and was told it was for non-conformance. However, the app that PalmGear chose to replace it with was even worse (in fact, the manual for the replacement app points you to Handango!).

As a developer who has some non-conforming apps, I have started fixing my conformance issues. Unfortunately, I am now reconsidering my work (especially in light of the last point above) and am 99% sure that I will (a) pull my work from PalmGear (b) actively encourage other developers to pull their work (c) actively encourage customers to seek other venues for buying their PalmOS software.

I've stuck by PalmGear (even when others in the company said drop them when they stopped paying, even though it wasn't a lot of business we did through them). I wanted them to succeed. Now I'm at the point where they can just go away. They're too much hassle for me.

[Temp Developer]

Originally posted by Shrink
Sounds to me like a lot of histrionics/hysteria over this. Why not wait till Kenny posts a response?
alan

We have had some statements from Kenny (in the PEF area, again) but there have been a lot of questions that have been asked that he hasn't replied to. Also, he posted a Q&A file which had some dubious statements but he hasn't responded to anyone's requests for clarifications.

Handango's policy, BTW, is a 30 day warning followed by delisting if you do not conform. That is a very reasonable policy.

(I never thought I'd be calling Handango more "reasonable" than PalmGear, but to be fair, Handango is quick at paying and is quite responsive to most requests. PalmGear has been a real pain, especially when it involves payment issues.)

[Serotta]

Temp developer,

The part about free advertising is probably true, but it's of PG's own doing. When I first started purchasing Palm software PG was my one stop. Then the problems with the developers and the ensuing business decisions changed that, and I used PG only as a search tool. Now I just start with Google and make every effort to purchase directly from the developer. I know many can't justify the expense of running their own "store", so as a last resort I'll purchase from PG. Now I guess I'll look for other alternatives, but please remember that it was HanDango that forced this problem on PG in the first place with their baseless lawsuit.

[Alistar]

What lawsuit?
I have only been a part of the handheld community for 3 months and I am a little out of the loop.

[Temp Developer]

Originally posted by Serotta
Now I guess I'll look for other alternatives, but please remember that it was HanDango that forced this problem on PG in the first place with their baseless lawsuit.

Actually, this suit wasn't their biggest problem. It was the problem they had with web hosting. They spent a lot of money on servers, software, and to a web site development firm that ended up going nowhere other than to the courts (PalmGear got sued for breech of contract by Oracle, I belive). The Q Ventures suit was small potatoes compared to this nightmare.

And I think the smart businessman at PalmGear left (J. D. Crouch was one of the founders, he now works as a senior Defense Department official in the Bush Administration - remember, PalmGear is a Texas-based company!).

[tanker_bob]

Q Ventures, a well-financed venture capital company, sued PalmGear back in 1998 for supposedly breaking a verbal deal. Although the suit was baseless and PG won it in 2001, they had two-and-a-half years worth of legal bills to pay. Worse, during the lawsuit, Q Ventures started Handago to compete with PalmGear, all the while using their lawyers to eat up PG's cash. That's about as dirty as you get.

This is the big reason that many "old timers" won't deal w/Handago. However, if PalmGear has now become a Handago clone by squeezing developers with outrageous demands while still not paying them back revenues, then maybe the moral field is level.

I'm still interested in what Kenny West has to say in this forum.

[KennyWest]

Here is a post I sent to a list I am on. There are some misunderstandings as well as outright misstatements that some have made.

There is also a PDF at:
http://www.palmgear.com/developers/PalmGearListingRequirements.pdf
that gives Q&A info and examples.

As referenced in a post earlier, here is a post I made to a list. The PDF with more details may also be viewed at:

http://www.palmgear.com/developers/PalmGearListingRequirements.pdf

BEGIN POST:
I have been reading the posts on the list regarding the revised Terms of
Submission (ToS) at PalmGear.com. We anticipated that the revised ToS would
be met by some less than enthusiastically though nonetheless it was
something that is important for the long term, for PalmGear as well as our
developers and partners. Our goal is to increase the revenues of our
developer Partners. If you do well we do well, there must though be equity
in regards to who generated the sale and who processes it. With that said I
felt it important to answer what seem to be the most common items as well as
address some misconceptions. PalmGear has always stood by its core roots and
purpose: "to be the best Palm OS site there is". Currently the site lists
almost 18,000 software titles; averages approx. 2 Million+ downloads per
month and approx. 3 Million unique visitors. These numbers are greater than
any other Palm OS site and do not include affiliate relationships (as seen
with some competitors) but are from customers that come to PalmGear as their
primary Palm OS site. This is a rather lengthy post so bear with me.

Below is a Q & A for the most common concerns and comments I have seen as
well as information that support our decision behind the revision to the
ToS. Many of the Q & A's below are in an updated PDF that is accessible via
the Terms of Submission online.

Q: What is the primary reason that PalmGear revised the ToS, specifically in
regards to the requirement for referencing PalmGear for sales?
A: Extensive research shows definitively that we are generating many more
sales than we are receiving the revenue for. This research revealed that
compared to those applications that point directly to PalmGear lost sales
rates of approx. 300% for fully non-compliant and 175% for those that
referenced at least one other method of purchase in addition to PalmGear

The above data was gathered from software at PalmGear.com and was comprised
of Top 50, Gear's Choice as well as many other randomly chosen titles. It is
clear by this data, which has been confirmed by additional research, that
PalmGear is generating many more sales than what we are processing. In short
PalmGear has been acting as a free advertising medium to a great extent.
Numerous affiliate relationships to announced shortly are also requiring
that PalmGear be exclusively listed in order to be listed and that
compensation can be made. We are investing daily to create a strong delivery
platform and distribution vehicle for which our developer partners will
benefit from.

Q: Why was the ToS changed just days after it was posted?
A: The sentence regarding the penalty was not clearly defined; therefore it
was important based on communications with developers to clarify. We regret
any confusion that this caused though felt it was important to get the
revision up as quickly as possible.

Q: Why didn’t PalmGear at the very least consult or discuss the requirement
to reference PalmGear for sales prior to posting the revised ToS?
A: Actually, we had numerous phone calls with many of the top developers as
well as email communications. For privacy reasons their names cannot be
revealed though they were in unanimous agreement regarding the reasoning.
They themselves were seeing many sales generated by PalmGear that were
processed via other methods due to the references for sales not referring to
PalmGear

Q: Is PalmGear open to other methods or tools that could make the process
for developers bringing their software into compliance easier?
A: We are of course always open to ideas and innovations. If any of you have
some ideas that the others feel are generally acceptable we would be glad to
consider. Our goal is to be compensated for the sales we are generating.

Q: How can I be assured that the download counts are valid, should I be
assessed the $2.00 per download fee?
A: PalmGear makes reasonable efforts to validate that the download counts
are unique. This is accomplished by limiting download counts from particular
host IP's for 2 days per product. This methodology is reviewed on a regular
basis.

Q: Why does PalmGear want me to change my "branding"?
A: This is a major misconception! It is not in any way our intention to
dilute your branding in any way; in fact we want to help. Adopting a more
standard method of menu tree structure will enhance your branding. The ToS
regarding referencing PalmGear for sales in no way dilutes your branding at
all.

Q: What about updates or bug fixes submitted, when must they be made
compliant with the ToS in regards to referencing PalmGear as the point of
sale?
A: Any additions or modifications of software listed at PalmGear.com are
required to be in compliance when the software is submitted or an update or
bug fix is made.

Q: When will PalmGear start checking software for compliance and in what
order?
A: Compliance checking has already begun, for the obvious reasons we cannot
release the specific order that this will be done though it has begun.
PalmGear has put in place a compliance department to insure the changes are
made. Our goal is to see that our customers purchase from those Partners who
are in compliance.

A: What about the $2.00 per download fee for non-compliant software, when
will this begin and will developers be notified if applicable that it is
being assessed?
Q: Clearly put, the direct goal is not to create a new revenue stream. It is
a means to see that products listed at PalmGear reference PalmGear as the
point of sale. The options are: A. Bring software into compliance, software
remains listed and for purchase, B. Disable software from listing and sale
PalmGear, or C. PalmGear may assess the $2.00 per download fee. It is the
developer’s responsibility to bring their software into compliance with the
understanding that the ToS provides PalmGear the option to assess a fee
should any application be found to not be in compliance.

Q: Has PalmGear begun delisting applications yet?
A: As noted above new submissions as well as updates are being reviewed. To
date there have been some that were not in compliance and were not approved
initially or were updates that were de-listed. Of those that were found to
not be in compliance virtually all have been changed to bring them into
compliance.

Q: Can I reference my site for Support and/or Copyright information?
A. Yes, it is allowable to reference within menus as well as informational
files such as DOC, TXT, PDF or HTML that are within compressed archives for
example, references for support and/or copyright information as long as they
are clearly indicated as such and information for registration clearly
refers exclusively to PalmGear.com

Q: Using the URL www.PalmGear.com for registration/purchase information is
too generic and could cause people who want to purchase my software to see
other developers competing products. Is there a way this can be alleviated?
A: You may use the URL: www.PalmGear.com/register This page includes a
Product ID field in which the customer then enters the ProdID assigned to
the software at PalmGear.com and upon clicking on the “Add to Cart” button
it is added to their shopping cart. For example the Product ID to reference
in the register screens from the URL:

http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?prodID=45900

is 45900

Example:
—————————————
Register PocketTunes at
www.PalmGear.com/register
Enter Product ID: 45900
—————————————

Q: Can PalmGear make so that there is a direct URL to my products such as:
www.palmgear.com/palmoftdeveloper ?
A: www.PalmGear.com/register as outlined above has been identified as the
most efficient solution for both PalmGear and the developer.

Q: Can I put a URL in my software, for example,
www.palmsoftwaredeveloper.com/palmgear or
palmgear.palmsoftwaredeveloper.com, which would then redirect to the page at
PalmGear.com that would list my software?
A: No, please use another method such as www.PalmGear.com/register

Q: Does the requirement to reference PalmGear.com exclusively for
registration/purchase mean I cannot list or sell my software at other sites?
A: No, you may list as well as sell your software anywhere you wish (as long
as this is not contrary to an sales exclusivity agreement you might have
with PalmGear.com, there are many exclusive Partners who choose to only list
with PalmGear.com). The exclusivity for registration/purchase information is
specific to the software submitted to PalmGear.com for distribution.

Q: When must my software be made compliant with the registration info
requirements?
A: The deadline for bringing into compliance is May 22, 2003.

Q: What about software submitted to PalmGear on or after April 22, 2003,
when must it be in compliance with the registration info requirements?
A: Software submitted on or after the posting of the revised Terms of
Submission on April 22, 2003 must be in full compliance for approval by
PalmGear to display at the site on the date the software is submitted.

Q: I submitted a software title and it was rejected, how can I tell it was
rejected and the reason?
A: Log in to the Developer area at PalmGear.com and to the right of the
software title submitted it will indicate the status. If rejected you may
view the reasons by clicking on Edit. At the bottom of the page will be
displayed the reason for rejection to the right.

Q: OK, I corrected the reasons that caused the rejection, what is the
process for it to be reconsidered for listing?
A: Log in to the Developer area at PalmGear.com and to the right of the
software title that was rejected click on Edit. Click on “Resubmit Product
Application” and it will then be put in queue for review by PalmGear.com

Q: Can I include in my software or documentation a reference such as “Check
the other software by PalmSoftDeveloper at www.PalmSoftDeveloper.com?
A: No, this again would direct sales away from PalmGear.com where the
original sale was generated. Software listings at PalmGear.com currently
include a link customers can click to display all titles by the developer.

Q: Can the registration information reference PalmGear.com ONLY or is it OK
as long as it is listed even if in addition to another company/URL?
A: The registration information must be exclusively PalmGear.com, not shared
with other payment sites or methods.
Q: Is it all worth it?
A: Yes! PalmGear is continuing to increase its customer traffic, site
development and Partner relations. Numerous site and affiliate announcements
will be made over the next 30 days that will continue to benefit our
developer Partners and further position PalmGear as the leading Palm OS site
for content and applications. We are committed to seeing that we are both
successful.



Regards,


Kenny West
PalmGear.com
http://www.palmgear.com
THE One Stop Source for your Palm Powered World!

[T1000X]

From a developer's stand point, I don't see how any developer would be able to accept thes terms and conditions. Obviously the only thing they can list in their program with violating the new agreement is state where to get support. They cannot list information as to their own site, and where to look for their other programs; other than on Palmgear. When a developer wants to release an updated version of their program, they must only point to Palmgear (and they can't include their own site) to get it. Any other associated site, and they will delist the program or be charged an additional $2 per download.

Now, has anyone done some of the math here? If you figure that an average Palm shareware application costs about $15, if you factor in the $2 per download fee, plus the associated costs Palmgear charges for the developers you can see it will eat into a developer's wallet fast. Now enter in commercial companies that are associated (in a sense) with PalmGear. Will they have to alter their software on the PalmGear site to comply? For some reason I doubt they will. And those who do comply with these BS requests, I may quit using their products (listen carefully DataViz and Blue Nomad...).

What I urge and suggest all developers to do is to pull their software from PalmGear and switch to PDAGreen.com, PDATopSoft, Handango (for those who want too), and Cliesource.

[KennyWest]

CORRECTIONS to the BELOW:

1. We were not sued by Oracle or the web team we had..
2. J.D. did not as you state "leave", he had never worked at PalmGear even close to part time, he was a minority owner. He prior to the DOD post was a professor. His DOD post required that he do that and nothing else. Additionally our having started in Texas is in no way related to J.D. and his post, he lived in Missouri..... :)
3. No, the Q Ventures suite was the big one... Period.

Kenny West

Originally posted by Temp Developer


Actually, this suit wasn't their biggest problem. It was the problem they had with web hosting. They spent a lot of money on servers, software, and to a web site development firm that ended up going nowhere other than to the courts (PalmGear got sued for breech of contract by Oracle, I belive). The Q Ventures suit was small potatoes compared to this nightmare.

And I think the smart businessman at PalmGear left (J. D. Crouch was one of the founders, he now works as a senior Defense Department official in the Bush Administration - remember, PalmGear is a Texas-based company!).

[KennyWest]

Frankly I beg to differ, I have replied to every single email I have received with answers to quesitons...

Kenny

Originally posted by Temp Developer


We have had some statements from Kenny (in the PEF area, again) but there have been a lot of questions that have been asked that he hasn't replied to. Also, he posted a Q&A file which had some dubious statements but he hasn't responded to anyone's requests for clarifications.

Handango's policy, BTW, is a 30 day warning followed by delisting if you do not conform. That is a very reasonable policy.

(I never thought I'd be calling Handango more "reasonable" than PalmGear, but to be fair, Handango is quick at paying and is quite responsive to most requests. PalmGear has been a real pain, especially when it involves payment issues.)

[KennyWest]

The above is not accurate...

1. The developer was not told that was the reason.
2. I will look into that though it was not chosen as a "replacement" for it, in fact it has been on the list for quite some time.

Please if you are going to quote other sources either make sure they are accurate or do not post.

Kenny West
Originally posted by Temp Developer
<SNIP>- One developer who has complained loudly in the Palm Entrepreneur's Forum mailing list has had his application either pulled or significantly downgraded (no longer a "gear's choice"), and was told it was for non-conformance. However, the app that PalmGear chose to replace it with was even worse (in fact, the manual for the replacement app points you to Handango!).

[KennyWest]

The below is not accurate at all! Please see my post on page 3..

Kenny West

Originally posted by PalmDeveloper



You dont want to know the full story..trust me... Palmgear is starting to be... --well just really weird.


I am a developer and the developer community is starting to move away from palmgear because of actions they have taken lately. Many of us are talking about delisting their software from Palmgear totally.


And about this new agreement, Palmgear put up a new partner agreement that says that www.palmgear.com is the ONLY website that can be presented to the user inside the Palm applications.


Say I have a company called PalmSoftwareApps we can no longer write things like:


- Copyright PalmSoftwareApps.com or
- This application was created by PalmSoftwareApps or
- Get support from support@palmsoftwareapps.com or
- For samples on how to use this app go to www.PalmSoftwareApps.com.


If we to do so then, according to this new "partner" agreement, they can charge us developers $2 per downloaded copy of our application. Yes, you read correctly. They dont even have to notify us that we dont comply and they are the one counting the downloads.


They are changing the text in the agreement each day - the latest addition is this $2 "penalty fee for non-compliance" - without nofitying us developers of the change, and without changing the date of the agreement.


I dont know what have happened to Palmgear lately. With the takeover from PBH Holdings the changes we start to see now is very frightening. One of the developers complained openly about this new agreement, and that same day his application was delisted from the "Essentials" directory at Palmgear where it had been listed for many years.


You cant even talk back since you will be "punished". That is why I am not posting my name in this post.


And what has happened to Kenny West? We dont recognize him anymore, he have changed very much since the takeover. He wrote a letter to all of us where he "explained" how these changes
would only BENEFIT us. It was quite a sad email to read I must say.


One of the developers thought that Kenny reminded him of the Iraqi Information Minister with that email... and it was not far away from it I must say.


And as a last note I should tell you that Palmgear still owes most of us developers for the sales from January- May 2002. They kept all the $ you paid for software during that period at least me have not seen a penny of that money yet.


They claimed to be bankrupt, the next month they were offering one brand new Tungsten T give away each day of that month.


I dont know what you users think of all this, feel free to write whatever you think.


For me it feels like we are trapped inside a movie with a very bad storyline, and we are probably going to delist all of our software from Palmgear. The money they owe us we will probably never see.

[T1000X]

Gee, Kenny, what did you expect would happen when PalmGear came out with that ToS change and then did not immediately try to clarify it? Did you think people wouldn't be upset about having to brand their software with the PalmGear logo or website, be charged $2 for not complying or having their software removed from the site? Have you thought how many freeware programs are on Palmgear and how they will be impacted (some programs haven't been updated in a while)? Obviously not. As a new developer you can be gauranteed that with the BS you and your site have been dishing out lately, my software will not be listed on your site.

[Vidge]

As a long time Palm OS user (I remember when PG was Pilot Gear), I have become increasingly uncomfortable with what's happening over there - to the point that I no longer check the site daily, as I used to do. I used to send everybody I knew to PG since it was the place to get POS software.

I do not begrudge PG the ambition to make money - heck, that's what entrepreneurialship is all about. At the same time, I feel that the recent changes have been detrimental to customers and developers alike. This latest TOS is the proverbial "straw" for me.

PG will be my last resort in purchasing new software. I will try to find out about new software offerings from other sources, including ClieSource, the Yahoo newsgroups and other PDA sites. And I will try to buy directly from the developers, without whom my PDA would have just been another paperweight.

And now, I hope you understand my signature line. Just because PG CAN make changes to the TOS, doesn't mean you DO.

[Beavis]

At this rate of posting, Kenny West is going to be a senior member by the end of the day

[T1000X]

Originally posted by Beavis
At this rate of posting, Kenny West is going to be a senior member by the end of the day

LMAO! Well, you have to start somewhere. With all of the bad PalmGear publicity and threads just at Cliesource, he should be busy for a long time responding to each person...

[Geckotek]

The whole thing is like Best Buy telling Compaq that they must have Best Buy written all over their products. They must make a version specifically for Best Buy with Best Buy written in all the manuals as the only place to obtain upgrades. Then Compaq has to make yet another version for thier other retailers. Doesn't make sense.

I see that PG is just trying to keep themselves in the game, but dumb move IMHO. I for one will avoid PG from now on. Or, even worse, use them as a search engine to research a product.....then buy elsewhere.

[KennyWest]

The analogy below is not a comparitive one as you cannot go into Best Buy, take the PC home and "demo" it without paying for it. A better one would be if you could do that and then when you boot up it displays a "Buy me at www.compaq.com with a link to do so". Best Buy paid for the shipping, space to store it, sales rep to answer questions, etc., etc. but got $0


Kenny West

Originally posted by Geckotek
The whole thing is like Best Buy telling Compaq that they must have Best Buy written all over their products. They must make a version specifically for Best Buy with Best Buy written in all the manuals as a place for any upgrades.

I see that PG is just trying to keep themselves in the game, but dumb move IMHO. I for one will avoid PG from now on. Or, even worse, use them as a search engine to research a product.....then buy elsewhere.

[Geckotek]

Wrong, I can go to Best Buy right now, buy a PC, demo it for 30 days, then return it for a full refund. Best Buy had to pay for the facilities to market and sell it as well as the manpower to handle facilities, sale, and return.

[numsquat]

Originally posted by KennyWest
Best Buy paid for the shipping, space to store it, sales rep to answer questions, etc., etc. but got $0


Kenny West



Exactly, it's called sales. Most business's I know of work in this fashion, it's figured into the cost of the item.

One of the unique things about much of PDA software is the ability to "demo" the software before you buy, which is a positive for the consumer, but is not necessarily a requirement to make a sale. I think it helps the developer to have demo's. There is nothing worse than feeling you have wasted your money on a program that doesn't do what you thought it would/what it claimed if you were not able to demo it.

Not every demo is bought but it is still a powerful tool for the developer in making sales. If I buy a program, without being able to demo it, and I don't like it, I probably won't buy from that developer and if it's bad enough, I would encourage people not to buy from the developer. All their other programs may be great but I wasted my money on the one that wasn't. If I demo a program and don't like it, I still may check out other programs by that developer, since it cost me no money.

The ability to charge developers for downloads that the majority (50%+) probably don't result in sales is poor business. PalmGear's main priority is not to the consumer, it's to the developers (which I am not one.) If all the developers were to leave, there will still be plenty of customers but there will be no products at PalmGear to buy, in which PalmGear will not make any money.

I'm not going out and be anti-PalmGear, at least at this point, but unless things change, I will search and recommend any and all other sites to purchase a piece of software BEFORE I recommend PalmGear.

If you want to cry and pass blame on past issues, such as lawsuits, for your actions, I really don't care and really won't listen. Reminds me of 2nd grade. PalmGear and the developers need to work together to solve this and if PalmGears actions are what is stopping this from happening, then shame on PalmGear.

[KennyWest]

Agree on many of your points and observations. FWIW, I am not the one who posted about the past here.. Just clarified some inaccuracies. In any event, we are open to real world, detailed suggestions.

Kenny West

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by T1000X
From a developer's stand point, I don't see how any developer would be able to accept thes terms and conditions. Grrr... IE crashed and Opera 6 doesn't work with ClieSource, so I lost my carefully crafted reply! :mad:

Anyhow, as a very long time professional developer, these aren't that onerous or unusual. How I've dealt with it is to put my strings into header and resource files that are conditionally included based on compile flags. I can quickly change languages, vendors, etc. that way.

You then wind up with different versions for different vendors, just by compiling, and you submit those to the respective vendor. So PalmGear would never see Handango in theirs and vice-versa.

This requirement makes sense from PalmGear's perspective because all they're insuring is that if a user downloaded the free (trial/demo) version from PalmGear, PalmGear gets commission on the resulting sale.

Yeah, it sounds bad the way they've phrased it, but it's really not that hard to deal with, and is considerably easier than localizing languages.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Geckotek
The whole thing is like Best Buy telling Compaq that they must have Best Buy written all over their products. They must make a version specifically for Best Buy with Best Buy written in all the manuals as the only place to obtain upgrades. Then Compaq has to make yet another version for thier other retailers. Doesn't make sense.
Well, almost, except it does already happen. Compaq makes a special version of several of their systems for CostCo, with different prices/parts.

And cell phone companies do this all the time. If you go to Cingular to buy a Nokia, it says "Cingular" on the phone, on the LCD when you start up, and on lots of paper in the Nokia-branded-and-sealed box. If you buy the same phone from Orange in the U.K., it says Orange in all those places.

PalmGear isn't breaking new ground here. I didn't see anything saying you couldn't have other versions hosted elsewhere, just that the build hosted on PalmGear needed PalmGear registration branding. They're just explaining it very very poorly. Basically all they're asking for is a localized version, but not for language. Instead, localized for registration/purchase data. That's it.

[T1000X]

Of course PalmGear isn't breaking new ground, but I brought up the point that there is a lot of older, but good, software that won't be updated (freeware) and will most likely be de-listed. Is that really fair?

[Geckotek]

I knew someone would respond with the cell phone example. Speaking as a former national trainer for a large cellular chain, the new setup is a pain in the a** for consumers.

There used to be a day when your phone was your phone and you could use it on whichever (of the 2) carriers you wanted. NOW, all of this specific branding and the carriers robbing ownership of the ESN from the customer has hosed the consumers. The only decent alternative is unlocked GSM phones. Oh, and don't get me started on the phone #'s.....can't wait for number portablility!!

Anyway, I digress. Yes, Compaq makes models for Costco, but Costco does not require the customer return for any reason after the original sale. Costco EARNED that sale by adding value in the customers eyes. This is the way it should be. This is true capitalism. If Palm Gear wants the sale, Palm Gear needs to make the customer WANT to come back by creating value, NOT by hijacking the developers product. If they want it to say "BUY FROM PALM GEAR!", then I say they need to write their own software!

[Shrink]

I think Kenny has done a great job at clarifying these issues.
I can't see anyone at Handango EVER deigning to put him/herself on"the line" at an open forum that is populated by members who have WAY above average intelligence and techno-savvy. Most people would be very leery about replying to a topic such as this.
My hat is off to Kenny.:D
alan

[Geckotek]

Originally posted by Shrink
I think Kenny has done a great job at clarifying these issues.
I can't see anyone at Handango EVER deigning to put him/herself on"the line" at an open forum that is populated by members who have WAY above average intelligence and techno-savvy. Most people would be very leery about replying to a topic such as this.
My hat is off to Kenny.:D
alan

Tru dat! (Hmmm...didn't sound so intelligent...LOL)

[wzel]

Originally posted by KennyWest

Q: What is the primary reason that PalmGear revised the ToS, specifically in regards to the requirement for referencing PalmGear for sales?

A: Extensive research shows definitively that we are generating many more sales than we are receiving the revenue for. This research revealed that compared to those applications that point directly to PalmGear lost sales rates of approx. 300% for fully non-compliant and 175% for those that referenced at least one other method of purchase in addition to PalmGear

The above data was gathered from software at PalmGear.com and was comprised of Top 50, Gear's Choice as well as many other randomly chosen titles. It is clear by this data, which has been confirmed by additional research, that PalmGear is generating many more sales than what we are processing. In short PalmGear has been acting as a free advertising medium to a great extent. Numerous affiliate relationships to announced shortly are also requiring that PalmGear be exclusively listed in order to be listed and that compensation can be made. We are investing daily to create a strong delivery platform and distribution vehicle for which our developer partners will benefit from.
[/B]

Foor a very long time there has been something wrong in PalmGear's attitude which is well reflected here. PalmGear calls application publishers "developers" and not "partners" as other sites do, for example PocketGear. This is very symptomatic. By calling them "developers" PalmGear takes this superior attitude where they see themselves a God bringing money to these poor guys who would be lost without them... Of course this is nonsense as many publishers are full fledged companies.

Thinking about "partners" is more than just changing words. PalmGear sees itself as doing advertising for publishers and overlooks the obvious fact that publishers are doing free advertising to PalmGear by posting their applications This is a give and take. We (publishers) think that we bring as much as we get... at least until the recent change of TOS. Much of the value of PalmGear in the eyes of potential buyers is in the belief that this is a one-stop shop where they can find all applications -- our applications.

Unless PalmGear's attitude changes radically, they are going to lose us and our applications. Palmgear will be the loser if end users no longer think that they can find all applications at PalmGear.

It takes years to develop goodwill but a few days may suffice to lose it all.

wzel

... obviously, a software publisher who prefers to be anonymous ...

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Geckotek
There used to be a day when your phone was your phone and you could use it on whichever (of the 2) carriers you wanted.Yeah, but that was when you had to pay for the phone yourself. You can still do that; you can go pay $550 for a Nokia 8290 and own it immediately, unlocked, and use it on several networks with appropriate SIMs, or you can pay $50 for it, locked, but yours to use on the network you bought it with for two years, the extra $500 absorbed by the carrier. It's still free-market, it's just that few users have compelling reason to care.

I've looked into it specifically because I travel a lot. But rather than bother with an unlocked international phone, it was cheaper to let Orange subsidize a phone in England and Cingular subsidize one here.
Anyway, I digress.<snip> If Palm Gear wants the sale, Palm Gear needs to make the customer WANT to come back by creating value, NOT by hijacking the developers product. If they want it to say "BUY FROM PALM GEAR!", then I say they need to write their own software!
PalmGear is a service developers use. PalmGear's client-base isn't the downloader, it's the developer. They provide downloaders to developers. So your model is backwards.

Developers can choose to pay the PalmGear price, which now includes string localization to help PalmGear ensure that the registration fees go through them, or they can go elsewhere. My guess is most developers will realize, as I did years ago, that separate localized string files for different vendors is much easier than even localizing languages, and will chalk it up as a very minor inconvenience and cost.

If they don't, PalmGear will have to change their strategy, but you grotesquely overstate the difficulty of meeting the new terms and what they mean.

[tanker_bob]

I would also like to thank Kenny for coming here to engage in this dialog. This issue certainly pushed hot buttons, and it takes some courage to face the fire.

The answer isn't obvious to me at this point. Intuitively, I think we all know that Kenny's underlying point about revenue vs. revenue generation rates is accurate. Lots of folks use PalmGear to find software, then buy elsewhere. In a way, PG is a victim of their own success as the premier Palm OS software site. I personally visit there every day to see what updates are available to software I've bought there.

The real question is how to "fix" the situation while keeping everyone happy. PG has come out with an approach which hasn't been well received, to say the least. The question on the table, asked indirectly by Kenny himself in several posts, is what other alternatives does anyone have to offer? I haven't seen one workable alternative offered here yet. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled w/PG's current approach. Far from it. However, a workable alternative doesn't pop into my head. Anybody else?

[*YellowRose*]

First, so everybody notices, I have altered my original post in this thread somewhat. The changes are in brackets.

Tell me though, Kenny, is this true (and this is quoted from the PM you sent me instead of responding to me in this thread)

I agree with Tanker Bob about changing support/info information. That is truly horrendous . . . many developers' websites offer information that would be too complicated, or just plain impossible to put onto their sales page at PalmGear.

Do you require them to NOT have their info (website, etc.) on anything that is downloadable from your site? I haven't seen this question answered. (Forgive me if I missed it . . .)

And to anyone who cares ~ regarding my opinions. I'm a very opinionated person. My opinions are just that. MINE. They don't represent anybody or any entity other than that. I do frequent a number of boards. Don't post on many tech/PDA boards other than this one, but when this topic is showing up on every board I read, well, I can't help but wonder if there's more than a few flames causing all that smoke. But, you see, that's just MY opinion.

[tanker_bob]

YellowRose,

No, he specifically said in one of his posts that they could have their support info, etc., displayed. The only restriction is that registration info has to point to PalmGear.

[*YellowRose*]

Originally posted by tanker_bob YellowRose,
No, he specifically said in one of his posts that they could have their support info, etc., displayed. The only restriction is that registration info has to point to PalmGear. Okay, thanks for clarifying it for me. ;)

[xsqweez]

I, too, have found the changes in policies/procedures at PalmGear (directed toward both consumer and publisher/developer) to be "off-putting." However, upon close inspection, there is really nothing taking place that is unfair, incorrect, unethical, etc.,--it all seems to be within the scope of fair business practice in a free market economy.

IMO, it boils down to one thing: ATTITUDE. The changes were enacted in the manner of a bull changing pricing structure in a china shop. The phrasing of policy for the developers conveys a sense of: If you don't care for it, it's too bad because PG has determined this is the best way for everyone. Likewise, the sudden--and initially flawed--implementation of the sign-in method to d/l trial apps came across as downright offensive.

For the most part, Kenny West (who should be commended for addressing the issues on this forum), comes across (again, IMO) as arrogant and abrasive. This sort of attitude and presentation often causes adults to bristle and then everyone assumes a fighting stance. I believe if public relations were built into the picture, the changes may have resulted in few comments & no hurt feelings or anger. Perhaps there is PR staff at PG, but it doesn't "feel" that way. Most business folks know that keeping customers happy is of paramount importance--there are "friendly" ways to make necessary, financially relevant changes without losing large amounts of your customer base.

Mr. West: Consider hiring a customer relations/PR person who would be able to relieve you of a great deal of work and a great deal of stress.

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by *YellowRose*
First, so everybody notices, I have altered my original post in this thread somewhat. The changes are in brackets.

Tell me though, Kenny, is this true (and this is quoted from the PM you sent me instead of responding to me in this thread)



Do you require them to NOT have their info (website, etc.) on anything that is downloadable from your site? I haven't seen this question answered. (Forgive me if I missed it . . .)

And to anyone who cares ~ regarding my opinions. I'm a very opinionated person. My opinions are just that. MINE. They don't represent anybody or any entity other than that. I do frequent a number of boards. Don't post on many tech/PDA boards other than this one, but when this topic is showing up on every board I read, well, I can't help but wonder if there's more than a few flames causing all that smoke. But, you see, that's just MY opinion.

After reading all of this, it&nbsp;has left me with a headache and being somewhat ticked off! I have spent a hell of a lot of money on software! If Palmgear is losing business, then they should ask themselves why? In putting this in simplistic terms, to me it's like commading respect, instead of earning it!

The one thing that&nbsp;ANNOYS me BIG TIME about Palmgear is that there is&nbsp;NEVER&nbsp;A&nbsp;LINK to the developers web sites where&nbsp;I can find out more information about a product! Usually when I have to go through that much trouble to find the link, I end up buying elsewhere!!

Another item is reputation from some that when there is a problem, Palmgear has been unresponsive! Dammit, it's my money that&nbsp;I am spending, some respect needs to be accorded to the purchaser! The consumer should not be ignored, developers like Megasoft, YiShow, and some others have lost my business forever!

To me it's like being forced to buy a Chevy, instead of a Rolls! In other words Palmgear better get it's act together or lose more business and cut out the B.S.!

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by tanker_bob
I would also like to thank Kenny for coming here to engage in this dialog. This issue certainly pushed hot buttons, and it takes some courage to face the fire.

The answer isn't obvious to me at this point. Intuitively, I think we all know that Kenny's underlying point about revenue vs. revenue generation rates is accurate. Lots of folks use PalmGear to find software, then buy elsewhere. In a way, PG is a victim of their own success as the premier Palm OS software site. I personally visit there every day to see what updates are available to software I've bought there.

The real question is how to "fix" the situation while keeping everyone happy. PG has come out with an approach which hasn't been well received, to say the least. The question on the table, asked indirectly by Kenny himself in several posts, is what other alternatives does anyone have to offer? I haven't seen one workable alternative offered here yet. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled w/PG's current approach. Far from it. However, a workable alternative doesn't pop into my head. Anybody else?

Very well put and customer service is paramount!

[yawn]

One is placed in a new position once one becomes a moderator. Sometimes it is wise to sit on ones hands.

[Stumper]

There are always two sides to every story. First lets look at Palm Gear. Their old business model was losing money. As anyone knows a business is in business to MAKE money. Thus the current result. Now as a developer your secondary goal is also to make money. The idea of pentalties and missing payments certainly would make me look the other way as well. In a dual dependancy relationship as Palm Gear and developers have, both are doomed without the other. I think the proper solution here would have been for Palm Gear to take a poll of the developer spell out its situation and let the developer make the decision or at least have a voice in the decision making.
I think as a customer and a supporter of quality programming we should still show our support of Palm Gear and thus support the developers. This is a battle that should have stayed in the board room and not the very forum that is supposed to support both sides of the fence.
Don't get me wrong I have a very strong opinion on the subject however I think its best to remain neutral and just look at it unbiased. As the end user we really do have the power to make or break both the developer and the web host. Use caution and think of both sides when you take an action on this subject.

[wzel]

Originally posted by tanker_bob
I would also like to thank Kenny for coming here to engage in this dialog. This issue certainly pushed hot buttons, and it takes some courage to face the fire.
I disagree. The real courage is to correct the situation they have created. Not trying to justify what is an untenable position.

The answer isn't obvious to me at this point. Intuitively, I think we all know that Kenny's underlying point about revenue vs. revenue generation rates is accurate. Lots of folks use PalmGear to find software, then buy elsewhere.
In what way is it different from seeing the last model at CompUSA and then going to CNET to find out the mail order house that is offering the best price? Whining about it is not a solution or a defensible business conduct. PalmGear should recognize that this is a fact of life and engage into some thinking about ways to be so attractive that customers buy there.

The real question is how to "fix" the situation while keeping everyone happy. PG has come out with an approach which hasn't been well received, to say the least. The question on the table, asked indirectly by Kenny himself in several posts, is what other alternatives does anyone have to offer? I haven't seen one workable alternative offered here yet. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled w/PG's current approach. Far from it. However, a workable alternative doesn't pop into my head. Anybody else?
The only fix to consider is for PalmGear to change its attitude. Their proposed rules would make it difficult for us publishers to distribute through several distribution houses at the same time: PalmGear, Handango, PDAGreen... The consequence would be that small publishers might accept the draconian PG rules but the larger publishers -- presumably the more popular products -- would leave PG.

I reiterate that PalmGear must accept the facts that the CompUSAs of the world have accepted for a long time. If they don't, they will just be destroying PalmGear itself.

wzel

[herpalm]

Boycott

[herpalm]

Just Kidding about the boycott. But I used to recommend to all clients and friends with palms to go to palmgear, but when they come back and say their credit card was double billed all the time you end up looking stupid.

[Gabo]

I think they have the right to put the rules in his business, If I agree or not is my choice as a developer and consumer of PG. I bought all my software in PG since it was pilot gear and the first palm application I made, I choose PG to be the seller.

But I'm not agree with the 2$ fee per download, I think that reject the application that not follow the PG specification is enough.

About Kenny I believe he is making a big effort in participate in this forum and I can testify he is responding the email, I wrote two email and get a response for both of them.

[Alistar]

Well I am going to throw my hat in the circle as it were.
I believe that the justification that Palmgear is taking on this is correct. I find myself using Palmgear to find the latest and updateed software and then usually buying from the developer. However I disagree on the radical stance they have taken by assuming that the developers should serve them. There are several products on Palmgear that have their own websites and purchase options and certainly don't need Palmgear to promote their products, Iambic, astraware and quickoffice are big names that quickly come to mind. Although there would probably be a slightly longer delay to get the word on updates around. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that there should be some of following registration back to Palmgear, but to go so far as to financially penalize those who don't is a little exessive to me. I figure they delist the product if they feel it does not help promote their site, there is no reason to charge the 'developer' because they are unhappy. Simply removing the product will certainly get the point across. $2 a download can get expensive depending on how fast the developer responds to the infraction.

[Caleb_pearson]

There are many reasons why I do not like Palmgear. For one, if you ever post a bad review on one of their "precious" programs, they will never post it. Two, they run programs on their "updated" list, when they haven't been touched for a long time (e.g. silverscreen). These two reasons have certainly never crossed my mind as a reason not to use their sight, however with the new advent of spam mail which they insist on giving me, coupled with this situation will cause me never to use their sight again, it's easier to use the developers sight, and makes me feel better.

bah, palmgear sucks.

[gadgetguru63]

- You will reference PalmGear as the exclusive point of sale method within any information or text files submitted to PalmGear for your software, and within any Info, About, Register, "Nag," reminder, or any similar screen that requires, encourages or contains information about unlocking, registering, upgrading, or otherwise taking any action required of any listed software that requires payment to activate, use, or unlock or is otherwise not free, including any free software that may require other purchased software for installation.

Although this is ridiculous, it is easily bypassed. Compile the program with the above info to reference the PalmGear site, and another compiled for other sites with whatever info you want. It says any program submitted to PalmGear has these restrictions, not that you have to meet these restrictions for software submitted to other software outlets.

If they also are trying to make you sign with PalmGear exclusively, then I say drop them like a hot potato and find another outlet.


Rick

[xsqweez]

As Caleb_pearson said above, PalmGear regularly removes negative posts about their "precious" programs; they also frequently list apps in the updated section that haven't been updated (MS Dict Pro English Dictionary is up there about every week or two--but with the same version number each time). Also, as they've readily admitted, PG search results have less to do with searching and more to do with "cleverly" concealing freeware at the end of the list.

These are most certainly not fair or appropriate revenue-producing strategies (they're more like schemes). The odd thing is the powers that be at PalmGear are not apologetic or conciliatory when these matters are brought to their attention--they simply behave as if they feel some folks have a lot of nerve commenting on their practices. It's just downright bizarre--they don't even pretend to be concerned about customer relations.

[cbulock]

Originally posted by Stumper
There are always two sides to every story. First lets look at Palm Gear. Their old business model was losing money. As anyone knows a business is in business to MAKE money. Thus the current result.

I work in the service industry, and trust me, giving good customer service always gives better return on your money than tricking people into being your customer. I see that they might have had a bad business model before, but I think that they are going about fixing it the wrong way. I don't want to see PalmGear go under because they are a great source of software, but I think they are only digging themselves a deeper hole.

[Geckotek]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
Yeah, but that was when you had to pay for the phone yourself.

WRONG. Our company was compensated $325 on average for every phone we activated. (Depending on the agreement with the carrier....I'll use our agreement w/ SWMBS in D/FW as an example.) The customer signed a 3 year agreement, we gave the customer a free phone that cost us under $300. We turned in the contract to SWBMS and they paid us $325. In the case of my first employer, we also billed the customer (instead of SWBMS) and took a cut of the monthly billing. As long as the customer paid their bills and completed their contract, they could do anything they wanted with the phone. If you sign a contract with Sprint today and buy a phone, they subsidize MUCH less (but contract is shorter) and when your contract is complete, you CANNOT take that phone to another CDMA carrier. Sprint will not release the ESN. Again, as you mentioned, the only option is to pay a very expensive price for an unlocked GSM phone.

[Unregistered]

PDATopSoft.com - growing Palm and other PDA software resource.

[Geckotek]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
PalmGear is a service developers use. PalmGear's client-base isn't the downloader, it's the developer. They provide downloaders to developers. So your model is backwards.

While some of what you say is true, it is flawed. First of all, PalmGear's client base is BOTH the developer AND the downloader. If either is missing, PG is dead. Secondly, I tend to agree with something one "publisher" posted here. While PG tends to believe they bring customers to "publishers," that is definately not completely true. In my case, and I'm sure for a lot of others, the "publisher" brought me to PG. For example, YiShow. I wanted to purchase YiShow, I went to the YiShow website, then followed the link to PG to purchse. SO, I thing PG is definately underestimating the effect this whole TOS will have on their business. If several developers pull their product, I won't even use them to look for products. Come to think of it, I only use ClieSource to look for products now. Gave up PG as soon as I bought my first Clie.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Geckotek
While some of what you say is true, it is flawed. First of all, PalmGear's client base is BOTH the developer AND the downloader. If either is missing, PG is dead.True, but that doesn't make their customer base the downloader; the downloader is still a resource. For example, a resturant needs food suppliers, cooks, and eaters, but only the eaters are customers. If the resturant alienates suppliers, they'll go out of business, and if PalmGear alienates too many downloaders they too will go out of business, both because they weren't able to supply what their real customer wanted.

That's relevant because of the financial model. Either way, PalmGear has to keep both developers and downloaders happy.
Secondly, I tend to agree with something one "publisher" posted here. While PG tends to believe they bring customers to "publishers," that is definately not completely true. In my case, and I'm sure for a lot of others, the "publisher" brought me to PG.True, but largely irrelevant. From your context, I'm guessing you aren't a developer. I am, have been for eons, have been in upper management at software companies, I understand the problems developers and software firms face intimately. And the single biggest one is that of getting sales. Even a great review in PC Magazine does not translate immediately to many sales, just a few. Exposure is what makes sales.

PalmGear provides great exposure cheap. That may change, especially if another site dives in and does a good job, but right now they're easily the best-known and best-organized way to get in front of potential customers fast and cheap. Even with thier new policies, they still are; building a custom-document version is a few extra steps that a Microsoft or Adobe won't bother with, but those companies don't sell shareware anyhow.

It's easy for you to stand on principal; you don't have a dog in the race to begin with. But when you're counting on the sales to keep your mortgage paid or pay off the Clie you bought, exposure and sales are the big thing.

Look at the cost-benefit analysis: Meeting PalmGear's requirements would cost a decent developer about three hours once, modifying their build system to link to different doc versions or macro-izing the docs, and then less than five minutes for each subsequent update (because it's basically a different compile flag.) So it's low cost, much lower cost than taking an ad out in a magazine, for example, especially in out-of-pocket. The benefit is huge exposure that, presumably, pays back at a decent rate.

Certainly developers should consider dropping PalmGear if they find the new terms onerous. And chart out their sales. Remember, right now they don't know if sales through Handango were due to PalmGear, so they'll need to chart them all. (In my family, we've found stuff at PalmGear and registered with Handango because PalmGear registrations take a lot longer.)

As for alternatives, presumably developers are doing 'em all already, but my wife and I find both PDAGreen and Handango largely useless due to the structures and formatting.

And finally, a disclaimer. I'm a developer, I've written lots of commercial software (including for the PPC), freeware and open-source software, but I have not released any PalmOS software. None-the-less, I believe the lessons from the other platforms transfer well to the PalmOS world. You may disagree, thinking PalmOS is a world unto itself.

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by Geckotek


WRONG. Our company was compensated $325 on average for every phone we activated. (Depending on the agreement with the carrier....I'll use our agreement w/ SWMBS in D/FW as an example.) The customer signed a 3 year agreement, we gave the customer a free phone that cost us under $300. We turned in the contract to SWBMS and they paid us $325. In the case of my first employer, we also billed the customer (instead of SWBMS) and took a cut of the monthly billing. As long as the customer paid their bills and completed their contract, they could do anything they wanted with the phone. If you sign a contract with Sprint today and buy a phone, they subsidize MUCH less (but contract is shorter) and when your contract is complete, you CANNOT take that phone to another CDMA carrier. Sprint will not release the ESN. Again, as you mentioned, the only option is to pay a very expensive price for an unlocked GSM phone.

Yeah, and Sprint maybe going bankrupt here soon!

[numsquat]

Originally posted by Alistar
However I disagree on the radical stance they have taken by assuming that the developers should serve them.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt that there should be some of following registration back to Palmgear, but to go so far as to financially penalize those who don't is a little exessive to me. I figure they delist the product if they feel it does not help promote their site, there is no reason to charge the 'developer' because they are unhappy. Simply removing the product will certainly get the point across. $2 a download can get expensive depending on how fast the developer responds to the infraction.

Exactly. Realisticaly, if you want to charge for non-compliance, put the charge on the programs purchased, not on the download. No one is making $$ at the point of download so you are hurting the developer.

I know there is a lot of anger coming from the developers from the past financial policies but PalmGear is still probably the #1 site in PalmOS sales and recognition (just a guess on my part, no hard stats). Both sides need to swing their ends on the pendulim towards the middle, listen to each other, and start communicating towards an agreement that works for both sides. It is in the best interest of both sides to form a partnership.

[Serotta]

Mr. West,

Thank you for the clarification and your participation in this discussion. While no one directly answered my question about HanDango, it appears to me that all PG is doing is what HD has been asking developers to do for quite some time, although I don't know if HD adds a surcharge. I believe my buying practices will remain the same, I will try to purchase directly from the developers site, and buy from PG as a secondary alternative.

As far as Numsquats last comment, of course it has to be on the download instead of the purchase, because the "noncompliance" makes it possible to complete the purchase outside of PG's control.

This just adds another step to the release process. Now a developer has to create a download set for each sales stream.

[thenightfly42]

Just a couple of thoughts:

I download a lot of software, and delete most of it. If I find shareware that I like, I'll pay for it. However, I now fear that by downloading, demoing, and deleting, I'm putting the developer at a financial risk.

I used to check PalmGear exclusively. Now I have to check 10 different sites to see what has been released, since developers seem to be leaving PalmGear. PG is still the best-organized site, and no one else seems to have the number and depth of apps.

Since PG is now requiring the downloaded app to only reference sales back to PG, could they put the developer's website link back in the project description?

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by n2ifp
The one thing that&nbsp;ANNOYS me BIG TIME about Palmgear is that there is&nbsp;NEVER&nbsp;A&nbsp;LINK to the developers web sites where&nbsp;I can find out more information about a product! Usually when I have to go through that much trouble to find the link, I end up buying elsewhere!!

I agree 100%, I usually do the same thing.

IMO a way to resolve the $2 issue is simple. Force developers to raise the price of the product on THEIR site $2 or more so that people would be more willing to buy from Palm Gear for the $2 savings. People who don't know about Palm Gear will buy directly form the developer and not know about the additional $2.

If sales don't increase Palm Gear's reasoning is wrong.

Erik

[Geckotek]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
True, but that doesn't make their customer base the downloader; the downloader is still a resource. For example, a resturant needs food suppliers, cooks, and eaters, but only the eaters are customers. If the resturant alienates suppliers, they'll go out of business, and if PalmGear alienates too many downloaders they too will go out of business, both because they weren't able to supply what their real customer wanted.

What it boils down to is this. PG is a sales distribution channel and the publishers are the suppliers of their product. The money they earn comes from downloaders paying for a product. Just like if I went into BB to buy a PC. The only difference is that PG gets to pay the their supplier after the customer makes a purchase, not on some net 30, 60, or 90 agreement.

IMHO, this is cut and dry. Maybe your experience in the software field has limited your viewpoint to just that. The publishers are a resource for product. PG is a resource of exposure for the publishers. But in the end, the MAIN customer, the origin of the money made, is the downloader. (If PG paid in advance for the product, you could call PG a customer of the publisher, but this is not the case.) You can say the publisher is a customer of PG, but this is secondary.

I agree PG has offered a valuable resource, but if someone else rises to the occasion, PG may find their new TOS will take themselves out of the race.

[numsquat]

Originally posted by thenightfly42
I download a lot of software, and delete most of it. If I find shareware that I like, I'll pay for it. However, I now fear that by downloading, demoing, and deleting, I'm putting the developer at a financial risk.

Exactly, and the developer has absolutely no control over this. I could go in and download 1000's of copies on one program and really hurt financially/drive off a developer from PG, especially if they are a competitor.

A system set up being able to charge developers off of downloads is only setting a system up to be abused.

[the_iceman]

Numsquat,

The developer does have the potential for being charged... only if his/her softare is not under complience with PGHQ. That is NOT your responsibility, nor anyone in the USER Community's responsibility.

It is the responsibility of the developer to ensure their software is in complience with the TOS of PGHQ.

Developers are responsible for their software.. and ensureing they can sell it according to the rules set forth by PGHQ.

The Reference thing... that is 'crazy'.. what some people are saying... if you really read the TOS for developers ... it states that PGHQ wants to be shown in the documentation they are the exclusive reseller of the software. That is about it. I've seen posts here which state.... you can't put in your own company name.. or company web-site .... that is BS!!!!!!!!!

PGHQ does not OWN your software... the developer owns it. PGHQ cannot assume the copyright on it. They want www.palmgear.com to be listed in the registration information , NAG Screens (or similar screens) and any information provided for unlocking/registering/upgrading software. I don't think this is such a big deal.... ... Since Most software is bought from PGHQ .... they just want to ensure... your software keeps pointing people back to them.

I don't think this is bad to comply with. For any support issues... and whatnot.. it is JUST FINE to put in your own company or personal web-address.. and/or e-mail addresses. Those who state otherwise ... are not really thinking straight.


I'll place below this... my comments I made on www.palminfocenter.com


Have a great one!

[numsquat]

Originally posted by Serotta
As far as Numsquats last comment, of course it has to be on the download instead of the purchase, because the "noncompliance" makes it possible to complete the purchase outside of PG's control.

Read my previous post for one reason this won't work.

It's also interesting that many of the more recent post are pointing in one direction: PG having control of the software. If this is the business model they are shooting for, they will fail. PG is in the retail business and they need to set up their business as that. They have competition, learn how to deal with that. Selling PalmOS software on the internet is no different than any other retail business on the internet, though is seems some people think it should be.

I've been in communication with several developers (again not being one myself, nor a business major) and the penalty language is the BIG issue, again it's not in the control of the developer and leaves the control open to PG. If the developer could have the choice of the penalty (delisting or charges), it could help, but it seems PG wants to decide on their whim which way the penalties go.

[the_iceman]

Here is what I put on www.palminfocenter.com


Being a tiny developer (very tiny by the scheme of things) .... I am not quite all up in arms about things with PGHQ as many seem to be.

PGHQ does provide me 'free advertising' and free order processing. When I do post something there it gets recognized in the 'new software' category and can help bolster sales, or trial downloads.

I've VERY VERY new to PGHQ in 'selling' things. I simply have a couple of skins out there for ZLauncher and some free HanDBase databases. Nothing I create is 'jaw-dropping' and making people sit in awe when they see it. Any downloads and/or sales ... is minimum for me... (not a power seller like many people are on PGHQ).

From what I read .... there are several issues which are at hand which may cause a developer to potentially be charged for downloads of demos......

1> Innappropriate use of software 'versioning'. If you are fixing BUGS or minor enhancements.. PGHQ wishes you would use the BUG-FIX area instead of the Software Version Area. I guess, from what it seems to say .. some developers... throw out software...to try and get a 'base' of customers... and then 'fix' their software... or try to give appearance they are always updating their software... some even on almost a daily basis. This evidently must put some kind of 'strain' on their systems... to have to deal with all of the software changes being made.

2> Abuse of PGHQ Developer Home Page Information where you force applications on a Home Page.

3> The big 'Reference' thing with documentation for PGHQ to be the exclusive Point of Sale (POS) location. While I think this can become 'silly' to the point almost of being rediculous .... that is their TOS. I guess... for those people who wish to 'sell' their software at different sites.... just have different doco files placed in each..... that way you can signify where you are selling things at.

I've been in the real world of business for quite some time... and I don't necessarily feel 'bad' about the reference thing. If I'm trying to get some sales for any products which I produce... what am I going to tell people.... go to PGHQ and buy it. Most of us don't want the hassle of our own purchasing/payment/return systems so we let PGHQ do it for us. We advertise our products as much as we can for sales of our products ... and PGHQ wishes to have this as well. I think they are a bit wrong ... and trying to give the public mis-information as to where they can purchase their software. They do want the 'world' to perceive they are the EXCLUSIVE place for the purchase a particular piece of software (Which we all know isn't always the case). I do think they wish to have this information in all the documentation so if you beam an application to someone... or send (freeware and/or demo copies hopefully) .PRC/.ZIP/.PDB...etc and they do a "HELP/ABOUT" on the application... they are pointed to PGHQ where the software came from and thus one sale.. will lead to more and more sales of the same software from the same source.

I don't know how 'good' this is..... I'd hate to go to WalMart ... and purchase a Windows XP Upgrade... and do a Help/About in Windows and see the software was sold at WalMart .... kinda strange in my mind.

I have no problem whatsoever... to create different HELP/ABOUTS... for software I'm generating. PGHQ has a nice site with great search features giving all of us developers good FREE advertisement for our products... and they in turn wish for us to ensure we advertise for them. This shows they wish it to be a partnership. We do some work for them.. and they do some work for us. I don't see it as all that bad in reality. One cannot necessarily expect to be able to sell things and there not be costs/consequences involved. PGHQ is as much in the business of making money as we devlopers are.

If I'm going to sell Palm Software on PGHQ ... I'll comply with their rules ... and if I sell it somewhere else... I'll comply with those web-site's rules. Nobody is forcing me to sell my products at PGHQ

Unless I want to run my own web-site.. with secure-server for CC processing and my own real-time order processing ... I will just have to comply with the rules put in place by PGHQ. If I comply with the rules... it doesn't seem I'm in any jeopardy of being charged up to $2.00 for trial downloads.

I'll start to take note... on what I do produce for PG ... and ensure any doco has their name in it... etc ... I'll just have multiple versions of my Software.... I think... I'll use the 'p' extension on my PGHQ software...so I know it is for PalmGear.... :)

[the_iceman]

I've seen in my time.. as have many of you... advertisements for High-end products which state ... 'sold excusively' at Nordstroms .... Nordstroms isn't trying to take credit for the products they sell.... only taking credit.. they are the ones where you can purchase the product .... I see it very similar with PGHQ .... They aren't saying you can't sell it anywhere else.... just that if it is on PGHQ ... you should only point the software on their site back to PGHQ. Kinda simple to me ... and I don't see it as that big of a huge problem at this point.

Those who do have problems with it.... go create your own site... use PayPal.... and register your site... with all the google/yahoo/spider search engines.... there is a nice cost you might have to do such....... :)

[numsquat]

iceman,

I agree with you, as I think many developers are too, that conforming the CURRENT guidelines is not a problem nor overall the big issue.

But as a developer, you are entering into a contract that gives PG a lot of power when it comes to penalties. Add that to the fact that many developers lost money, that by contract, they should have had received, so there is a big trust issue going on here. Lack of trust combined with disempowering contract clauses, this is a big issue for a developer.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Geckotek
IMHO, this is cut and dry. Maybe your experience in the software field has limited your viewpoint to just that.<snip>

I agree PG has offered a valuable resource, but if someone else rises to the occasion, PG may find their new TOS will take themselves out of the race.
It's possible that I'm not seeing both sides (though I hasten to point out I'm also a user), but more probably you aren't (maybe we both aren't ;) ), because you haven't lived on the hungry-developer side. PalmGear is, to the developers, a service provider. Sure, downloaders think of themselves as customers, but PalmGear doesn't make money directly from downloaders; they make essentially a commission on sales... effectively paid by developers.

For PalmGear to stay successful, they must continue to deliver downloaders to developers and ensure those downloaders then register through PalmGear. Just providing downloaders does PalmGear no good.

This means not only the TOS had to change, but the downloader experience must be more compelling than the PalmGear competition. You are correct to point this out, but I think you're over-focusing, given the lack of competition.

How much effort would it be to compete with Amazon.com? They're just a store, no monopoly on items, publishers don't have to go through them (and some don't.) But the competition has failed and you would too. Amazon has name-recognition, repeat buyers, does the job well, and is easy to navigate. Many other book and CD sellers are much harder to find things on.

PalmGear is in a similar position. The vast majority of palm users never see these forums, and won't know about the brouhaha. What they know is that PalmGear advertises, has lots of links, and their friends have found stuff there, so they'll go there. Compared to the competition, it's easy to navigate, friendly, and efficient. The software registration process needs work, but other than that it's pretty smooth. Nothing else comes close right now. (To use your words, nobody has "risen to the occaision.")

Before developers can abandon PalmGear, they would need an equally-compelling alternative... or they accept reduced exposure and sales. And you can't simply build name-recognition, exposure, and repeat-visitors, and even if you could, developers would still have reason to list on PalmGear simply because there might be a non-trivial set of users that stay on PalmGear and never hear about the competition.

The bottom line: PalmGear is in a position of strength, because the field is so weak. Only very strong development firms can simply walk away from them.

[Got_Clie?]

Originally posted by n2ifp

The one thing that&nbsp;ANNOYS me BIG TIME about Palmgear is that there is&nbsp;NEVER&nbsp;A&nbsp;LINK to the developers web sites where&nbsp;I can find out more information about a product! Usually when I have to go through that much trouble to find the link, I end up buying elsewhere!!


AMEN TO THAT!

What's so hard or bad about having a link? I usually use the "email" to get the exact site name. But what a PITA that is!

[MaryJoS]

Originally posted by wzel

PalmGear should recognize that this is a fact of life and engage into some thinking about ways to be so attractive that customers buy there.

I totally agree. For instance Handango has a rewards program where you earn points and can trade them in later for a gift certificate. That gives me a HUGE incentive to buy from them. I have not been happy with their actions in the past, but PalmGear has proven over time to be even worse in their treatment of developers. It frustrates me to no end that I now have to go searching for product's websites to get more information (fullsize screenshots, etc.) just because PalmGear is so paranoid about people buying it from anywhere else. I used to buy almost all my software through them, now I only will if I cannot find any other choice.

[Serotta]

I too miss the links to developer sites very much, but look at it from PG's perspective: PG brings the customer in, who then follows the link to the developer's site, and at the bottom of the page is a link that says "buy me", only to lead the customer to Handango for purchase!

Maybe PGHQ should change to being a portal to developer sites, and charge developers for the "pass thru", as well as a comission if the developer wants to use them as their e-store.

[thenightfly42]

Originally posted by Serotta
I too miss the links to developer sites very much, but look at it from PG's perspective: PG brings the customer in, who then follows the link to the developer's site, and at the bottom of the page is a link that says "buy me", only to lead the customer to Handango for purchase!
Right, but they are now requiring the developer NOT to have a "buy me" link unless it points to PG. So, there should be no harm in pointing to the developer's site, right?

[Serotta]

Originally posted by thenightfly42

Right, but they are now requiring the developer NOT to have a "buy me" link unless it points to PG. So, there should be no harm in pointing to the developer's site, right?

No, they're still allowed to have links on their own website, they just can't reference registration info outside of PGHQ in anything that is downloaded from PGHQ. I'm pretty sure that that is the same requirement that HanDango has. The thing I am unsure of is if Handango uses a stick of penalizing developers monetarily for "noncompliance". What this does is force a developer to have a Handango "version", a PGHQ "version", and a generic "version" to sell from his own site.

[Wolfsmoke]

Originally posted by thenightfly42
Right, but they are now requiring the developer NOT to have a "buy me" link unless it points to PG. So, there should be no harm in pointing to the developer's site, right?

One would think.

And one more unsolicited email from PG and I just may snap.

[xsqweez]

I downloaded the new version of TealLaunch this morning, and the name of the download file was "gearLaunch"--is this part of the new procedure?

[KennyWest]

Not a requirement at all.. That was simply how Vince over at TealPoint named the file. i.e. it is a coincidence, most likely so TealPoint can easily identify the file for each site.

Kenny West

[*YellowRose*]

Originally posted by xsqweez
I downloaded the new version of TealLaunch this morning, and the name of the download file was "gearLaunch"--is this part of the new procedure? You are kidding, right?

lol!

[frauen1]

I understand Kenny's requirements - I am a developer with software listed there (currently fixing compliance issues). I have no problems with his policy except the penalty thing - that's a non-starter for me.

What I would like to see:

1) It's obvious that PalmGear is going through all the apps checking for non-compliance. Instead of this "penalty" nonsense, I'd like them to send a message to the developer informing them of their non-compliance and giving them some time (15 days? 30 days?) to fix the problem or be delisted.

2) If the developer has some legitimate reason for non-compliance, then they need to negotiate a waver from PG (hey, there might be a reason!).

I think that the above would be much more acceptable to the developer community as well as get PalmGear to maximize the number of applications it sells. I refuse to believe that the desire for the penalty is to make money, but it's coming accross as a "Win-Lose" deal. I wish to turn this into a "Win-Win" proposition. Charging some developer $2/download amounts to some extra work on PalmGear's part (setting up a mechanism to track this, generating a bill, dealing with irate developers on the phone or via email, etc.) and doesn't seem like the best use of PalmGear's scare resources.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by frauen1
... and doesn't seem like the best use of PalmGear's scare resources.
Was that a typo, meaning scarce resources, or was it a clever turn on the scare tactics they're using?

[xsqweez]

YellowRose--No, unfortunately I'm not kidding. When I first saw the download file was named "gearLaunch," I thought perhaps it was sort of a sarcastic commentary by the good folks at TealPoint. I had to LOL also...

[rldunn]

Originally posted by yawn
One is placed in a new position once one becomes a moderator. Sometimes it is wise to sit on ones hands. First off, this is a ridiculous statement. The mods here are VOLUNTEERS, and all of us started as regular members too. We have and will continue to express our own opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Now back on topic. I have supported PG through all of their trials and tribulations, mainly due to one fact: I LIKED their setup best. It was always easy to find information on any app that I liked, downloading was easy, nearly every app, freeware or shareware, was listed there. The search function worked great. And it had a really nice interface. THIS is what set them apart. Like many others have said, I have visited that site at least a few times a day every day for the past several years, and have made the vast majority of my purchases from there. When all of the issues came up, I always defended them.

But c'mon, enough is enough. I hate to see developers getting screwed, and this idea of forcing exclusivisity is ridiculous. You earn that, you don't force it. And the sad thing is, you already know how to earn it. Who wants to deal with Handango? It's so hard to find anything there. And who wants to go through the trouble of starting a new software site? No one, it's a pain. You HAD all the apps. You were so easy to use. But now? Lots of developers have already left, so you're no longer the central repository. Your search function is now worse than the one at Handango, which is saying a lot. Try searching for Handyshopper. I understand that it's freeware, generating you no revenue, but I come to Palmgear for EVERYTHING. That was your niche, but no longer. If a site becomes too hard to use or too frustating, they'll go elsewhere. And this new policy is only going to make it that much worse, with many more developers leaving.

It's truly a sad day for the Palm community. I realize you're trying to make your business model better, but trust us, this is not the way to go. Why don't you go back to where you started from, which will make things better, and then go from there and see if things can be improved. Because I'll repeat, this is NOT working!!

[Reggie]

With Rod's statement, ClieSource is willing to help developers by having them sell their hard worked on programs through Global Source, the parent company of ClieSource. Since GS is new to this, we would like to ask suggestions. I have created a thread for in under the Comments & Suggestions forum:

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12876

Thanks.

[Serotta]

Originally posted by rldunn
...But c'mon, enough is enough. I hate to see developers getting screwed, and this idea of forcing exclusivisity is ridiculous. You earn that, you don't force it. And the sad thing is, you already know how to earn it. Who wants to deal with Handango? It's so hard to find anything there. And who wants to go through the trouble of starting a new software site? No one, it's a pain. You HAD all the apps. You were so easy to use. But now? Lots of developers have already left, so you're no longer the central repository. Your search function is now worse than the one at Handango, which is saying a lot. Try searching for Handyshopper. I understand that it's freeware, generating you no revenue, but I come to Palmgear for EVERYTHING. That was your niche, but no longer. If a site becomes too hard to use or too frustating, they'll go elsewhere. And this new policy is only going to make it that much worse, with many more developers leaving.

It's truly a sad day for the Palm community. I realize you're trying to make your business model better, but trust us, this is not the way to go. Why don't you go back to where you started from, which will make things better, and then go from there and see if things can be improved. Because I'll repeat, this is NOT working!!

I don't see it as PGHQ trying to "force exclusivity", I see it as there attempt to make sure that software downloaded from PGHQ is purchased through PGHQ. The only problem I see is the additional surcharge for noncompliance.

As far as the search, once Mr. West advised about the Advanced Search options I've been very happy with the search results. Searching for HandyShopper using the application name field brought back 3 listings all of which were relevant.

I really do think Mr. West is trying to both serve the Palm community as best as he can while remaining profitable. Again, the problems that resulted from the lawsuit caused a lot of developers to set up alternate sources for purchase. Because of this PGHQ now has to make sure that software downloaded from its site doesn't reference these alternative methods of purchase.

Has PGHQ been completely blameless in all of this? No, it certainly made some questionable decisions on how to avoid extinction. But I do think they're trying.

[wnm]

I guess PG's chutzpah never stops. If they aren't making money, they need to look at their business model. My guess is that most users now go directly to the developers site to purchase software or updates. That is costing them fees and ad money. I don't really know how ther site is set up, but I would have thought they could offer an centralized upgrade engine for developers so they the developer wouldn't have to maintain their own site with it's needed security and money handling capabilities.

As rldunn said, they had a good search feature which I used to use. I would purchase at Handango or at the developer site, because of reports about order problems at PG. Now it seems even the searching isn't very good.

BTW, I visited PG today and got a pop up alluding to a new PG being on its way.

[aym]

Anyone else notice that the number of daily posts on PG has gone WAY, WAY, WAY down lately?

I used to find 25-50 a day in each column, and lately it's been only about 3-10 (at least in the new column).

I'm wondering if this is a bottleneck caused by the checking, or lots of things being refused for compliance, or just a sign that developers are jumping ship like lemmings.

Thoughts?

Aym

[Unregistered]

We've tolerated a lot as developers to try to support a reasonable site. Lack of payment. No links for support. Now this.

You'd think taking 25% of the developer's earnings and adding advertising revenue on top of that would be enough to make PalmGear solvent.

I was very annoyed with the removal of developer's links issue, but I got over it. I mean we have to link to them, can link to no one else, and they can't give us a link for support or FAQs? Ridiculous. But oh well...

The $2 charge is completely unacceptable. And I doubt it's even legal. Especially since I as a developer never even received notice of this change in policy. Did PalmGear send out emails to developers about this? I wouldn't even be aware of the change if I didn't frequent message boards and see the outrage. You can delist me -- I'm heading elsewhere anyway.

As if developers don't spend enough time with OS4, OS5, hires+, handera, and other "special" versions of their software...now we have to cut multiple versions for each download site? Again, ridiculous. I can't even put a link to my own website in my own software? That's insane.

The fact is: someone should just replace them. Developers will go elsewhere if someone will just do it right. Make it clean, simple, fast, and complete. Support yourself with a low percentage (undercut the others) so the developers are encouraged to sell through you. Earn advertising dollars. Pay people on time. Allow developer links.

I guarantee if you make the conditions more favorable, developers will leave these "exclusive" sites and list with you. And once your library is complete, Palm and Sony will want to link to you too....

We really need a FOX to challenge the ABCs and NBCs of PalmGear and Handango. They've outgrown their usefulness. They've gotten too too greedy for their own good. Without the developers they keep sh*tting on, they are nothing. It's really time to go elsewhere. If someone can just give us a good enough alternative site, I feel certain this could be the last mistake PalmGear makes.

[gadgetguru63]

I really wish I had the capital to put up to start a new site. I know it would lucrative for the developers and myself. Poverty sucks.

[Unregistered]

gadgetguru63 - www.PDAGreen.com are the same guys as www.PalmPilotFiles.com - list your software there they take 15% comission untill the end of year. 20% afterwards.
Finally some competion in this market!

[Alejandrico]

How long have they been in the web?
I did a zLauncher search and got 0 results
I did a Launcher search and got only 4 results, none of them related to the Zlauncher, Yichow, LauncherX or others

[Unregistered]

PDAGreen.com/PalmPilotFiles.com has also:
- links to developer's website and support email
- automatic registration code generator, static key, list of keys ect ect.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by KennyWest
The above is not accurate...

1. The developer was not told that was the reason.
2. I will look into that though it was not chosen as a "replacement" for it, in fact it has been on the list for quite some time.

Please if you are going to quote other sources either make sure they are accurate or do not post.

Kenny West


Kenny, quite honestly, you and your rabble don't have the clout (market or otherwise) to talk this way. You guys are digging your own financial grave, and you're welcome to it.

Try being honest from now on, at leat then you can be respected for *something*.

[benixau]

versiontracker.com

-no fees
-links to developer's site and support
-easy search
-can receive freedback on the site
-only thing you need is to supply your own server for the actual app.

I use them for my mac apps. very good.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Serotta
Obviously, PG is struggling financially, and have been for quite awhile. Somebody is trying to come up with a business model that will theoretically give the investors the desired return. Developers and customers have to decide for themselves if it is worth the trade-off. IMO, not being able to list where to go for support will only hurt software sales for the developer in the long run. So as far as I'm concerned, I make every effort to purchase directly from the developer. If I can't do that, PG has been my choice over HandDango, but maybe this will change, although they do much the same thing. Are there other sources for Palm software?

Two excellent alternatives have surfaced:

www.pdagreen.com
www.pdapointer.com

One of these will win out in the end since both are very good. Check them out.

[hherbzilla]

Originally posted by Unregistered


Two excellent alternatives have surfaced:

www.pdagreen.com
www.pdapointer.com

One of these will win out in the end since both are very good. Check them out. Hmmm... I was slightly interested until I saw pdapointer's Editor's Choice awards (http://www.pdapointer.com/view/downloadsAwarded.php?1&platform=palm). I never heard of any of these apps! Something smells.

[OcellNuri]

Originally posted by hherbzilla
Hmmm... I was slightly interested until I saw pdapointer's Editor's Choice awards (http://www.pdapointer.com/view/downloadsAwarded.php?1&platform=palm). I never heard of any of these apps! Something smells.

I think it is exciting to see someone recommending NEW apps. :D

[LITTLESIX]

I've been screwed by PG so many times now it's not even funny. UL codes not mailed, double billing/triple billing. Getting to a live person there is something akin to pushing a bus uphill. If I'd known they were prostituting the developers on top of all of this, I'd never have spent a nickel with them in the first place.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Two excellent alternatives have surfaced:

www.pdagreen.com
www.pdapointer.com

One of these will win out in the end since both are very good. Check them out. You have a very different definition of excellent and very good than I do. I tried out PDAGreen a while ago, and just rechecked it now to ensure you and I are talking the same thing. It's dreadful. Terrible. Useless. Utter dreck. Complete crap.

Allow me to explain.

Web sites and PDAs have a common goal: Allow us to get to the desired information very quickly with a minimum of fuss, muss, and clutter. This minimum is what makes the Palm better than the PPC; it's easier to use and faster for PDA activities such as a date or ToDo item.

For a web site to do this, things should be arranged in a minimum of screens (i.e. no 10-screen-long pages), with the correct choice in the top quarter of the screen.

Those are real-world tasks. So let us apply a trio of real-world tasks to pdagreen and to palmgear. As software websites, the goals will be:

1. Find the latest update to the freeware "today" software.

2. Find me a new game that's addictive, non-violent and color. Just browsing, but want one that's judged popular already.

3. Find me info on either of my wife's favorite games, Bejeweled. (Not freeware, but this is an obvious task for a PalmOS website for normal users.)

Task #1, PalmGear: The top left corner has an obvious search box. Enter "today". The first option is indeed a program called "today", but it's not the right one, and there are zillions of nominal matches. So click on the prominant "Advanced" box, input "Today" and select "freeware". It's the top result.

Total effort: two entry screens, never had to scroll, the correct choice was always intuitive and at the top of the screen.

Task #1, pdagreen: The near-top right side has a search. Entered "today", got three matches, none named "today". Tried "Advanced" but got roughly the same field options and still didn't find the software. PDAGreen flunked.

Note: "Today", by Jonas Lindstedt, is so well-known and common that it never occurred to me it would be missing from pdagreen. That alone dings pdagreen pretty hard.

Task #2, a fun game: PalmGear... well, obvious to try "Gear's Choice" on line 2, which lead to "Fun & Games" on line 2, which lead to a great list. Including, bizarrely, the answer to the third task (which I decided on before trying any of the tasks.)

So PalmGear did it in two clicks of line #2. I had intended to use the PalmGear category browsing, but doing this as a novice, that turned out unnecessary.

Task #2, PDAGreen: From the first screen, if it supports category browsing it isn't clear. So I clicked on the itty bitty teeny tiny "software" label at the upper right, under where it says, "Power for your Palm". And wound up in the same dratted spot again. The "downloads" label next to it does the same thing; apparently this is merely a banner and not an image map. Poor design, folks.

Note that right below that I'm told "Your shopping cart is empty." Drat!, I was hoping for freeware. So now I'm lost and confused. But onward I trek. There's another "download software" button off to the right side, so I try that. And I get a login screen. No good.

Now I'm pretty sure that PDAGreen does support categories, as I've found them before, but this has been a lot of effort so far. I jumped to the bottom, hoping there would be a helpful bar down there; that's several screens down. No luck. So I carefully scroll. And there it is, a "Browse categories" button and several categories, halfway down the second screen (of more than three screens, and completely off-screen on the first page.) So I click on "Games: Puzzle" and get to what appears to be the correct place.

PDAGreen Score: D-. the data was there, but not accessible from the first screen of the first page, the "download" and "software" labels were red herrings, and the request for me to log in was surreal.

Third task (which is beginning to seem cruel): PalmGear: Enter "Bejeweled" in the search at the upper left; it's the first resulting match. Below that are similar matches, some other related games, multipacks, and completely unrelated things.

PDAGreen: Enter "Bejeweled" in search at mid-upper right and it's the only match.

PDAGreen did well on this, although having the expansion packs, similar games, and multipack discounts listed seems advantegeous to me.

Total score: PalmGear never made me go more than 1/4 of the way down the first screen, and no task took more than two text inputs, even when the "Today" app required going to the advanced search. PDAGreen made two of the three tasks much harder, never even finding the first project and taking some time to find the categories for the second.

Of course, as a supporter of these sites, you will weakly argue that my standards are unrealistic. You're wrong. My wife and my sister are far more into looking for new toys for their palms than I am into mine, and they won't bother with a site that is remotely frustrating or doesn't give them what they want instantly. Me, I'm a programmer... including on the Palm. I've built lots of successful software in C, C++, and assembly on many platforms; I know what I'm doing and I've studied UI a lot. And I wouldn't use PDAGreen for the same end reason the women in my life wouldn't - it's too inconvenient, too cluttered.

That doesn't mean the idea is bad, just their implementation. If they would put the categories at the top of the page, dispense with the misleading label, hide the developer options behind a button that says something subtle like "Developers... click here", not try to put half their catalog on the front page, and make sure they have pretty relevant software such as Jonas' Today, they could make a successful go of it. But as they are right now... no chance.

[graph101]

Best way is to cut and paste the app name, search google and then you'll find where the website is since Pgear doesnt list the developers name.

[hherbzilla]

Originally posted by OcellNuri


I think it is exciting to see someone recommending NEW apps. :D Are you serious or is that sarcasm? The "best of the best" for multimedia and graphics is "Adult Fun Pack." Puhleeeze.
http://www.pdapointer.com/view/image.php?imageID=1194&platform=palm

[OcellNuri]

Yea... I did notice that... that didn't do much good to impress me. You got me there!

[nashman]

Pdassi is great for european users, but it's lacking a better dupport for overseas marketing. They take 25%, just like Palmgear, but seem to have a really liberal site policy, where you can basically create your own productpage on their server, or let them do everything for you, even the translation of the product decsription. They're still pretty small, but I can tell you it's much more pleasant for European costumers to buy from them, then to buy from either one, palmgear or handango.

Here's their partner program page:
http://pdassi.de/user/partner-en.php

[the_iceman]

I, as a very tiny developer of themes, have looked at several sites. PDAPointer, PDAGREEN....HanDago....etc.

Some are larger.. some are smaller in size. I'd have to say... that PalmGear does have game.

Do I feel it is a little 'cheap' they make us slather PalmGear all over everything .... YEP ... I sure do. I figure I'm paying my dues to them in their 25% commission for the fulfillment of orders. I don't necessarily feel it is their right to make sure I point to them.

I think they are trying, in some ways to be pro-active to the number of sites which are starting to 'grow' some. As mentioned here in ClieSource... there are many Software sites for the PalmOS. Some have 'specials' for commission percentages down to 15%. I find the most 'troublesome' thing about PalmGear.... isn't the slathering of their name all over the things I sell there ..... I find it as dictatorship in the pricing.

A Quote from the Partnering Information document which came out on May 16, 2003 states this:

"While we allow freeware on the site, we do not allow the listing of trial or any other versions related to software that is offered for sale anywhere unless it is offered for sale on PalmGear.com at a price that is no greater than the price it is offered at from any other Internet source (including your own site). "

This I have somewhat of a problem with. If they want to play games and try and make it more difficult for developers to post on multiple sites ... fine. I can recompile my things without too much of a problem and 'point' people to PGHQ for demos they downloaded from PGHQ.

As shown above, I do not enjoy the 'dictatorship' approach limiting what I can, and cannot sell a piece of software for on their site. I feel, if it is my software, and my development time... I should be able to sell it for whatever price I want to sell it at on any web-site available. I would think...... If I wanted to try and make .... say $10 per sale I would sell it for $13.34 on PalmGear. They would take their 25% cut and I'd be left with $10.00. Same with HanDago. They want 30% I could sell my software for $14.29 and get back $10.00. But PalmGear wants to ensure they can get every penny they can by making developers NOT sell their software on PGHQ's website Higher than anywhere else on the entire web.

Does that sound fair? Almost sounds like a legal issue to me. Since PalmGear only 'lists/procures purchases' for software they don't even 'own'. I don't know how they can legally regulate the price a developer chooses to charge for their own software.

[n2ifp]

Are developers still owed money??

[the_iceman]

dunno... never got a check from 'em yet ..... I do understand there were issues in the past .... but my stuff is too new ..... I won't be 'due' a check till sometime next month .... if it don't come.... I'll be knocking down their doors .... :)

[PalmDeveloper]

Originally posted by n2ifp
Are developers still owed money??

Sadly yes. Palmgear owes us for the first 5 months of 2002 for the sales of our applications at Palmgear. They have kept 100 % of the money when you users purchased our software.

They ignore our demands/requests for them to send us __OUR__ money.

The "option" they have given us is that they keep 80 % off the money and send us 20 % now, or they keep 50 % or send partpayments for a year, or they pay everything with partpayments over 3 years.

I wish all you users knew more about this, the developer community is actually raging over this, and now they have the nerve to demand a $2 "penalty" per downloaded copy at their whim. (!!!)

How would you feel if a company that owes you money tells you that they cant possibly give you a single cent or they will go bankrupt, and the next month they give away 30 brand new Tungsten T's for free! ( Among other things )

Palmgear have gone from a friendly company to a bunch of lying, deceiving *censored*...

[Brownster]

Tis why I don't buy from PalmGear...I want to support the developers...not the LARGE GREEDY middle man...causes prices to go up. I try to buy directly from the programmer if at all possible. I think we all suffer from this kind of poor business crap!

Jim

[n2ifp]

Thank you for the feedback! That's what I had thought, kick the developers while their down. This is not good, money is owed and this TOS just adds insult. This really blows :mad:!

[MythoFactory]

I've no problems with handango, though 30% hurts a bit...
I never tried PalmGear, just because their site design stinks,
and I wondered why they were cheap... I know now.

Basically I chose handango because I can sell in Japan and USA and France easily.

[Gadgtfrk]

If what PalmDeveloper has stated is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, Palmgear is pathetic....

I try to go directly to the developers site, if I am redirected back to Palmgear, I will not purchase the S/W until I find another way.

Take care
Dave

[the_iceman]

I do have a feeling ..... that I'll be migrating what little I have on PGHQ ... over to PDA-Green. Nothing in their PARTNER infomation states they are NOT to pay ... or will ONLY pay when they can. They are entitled to 25% of the sale of a piece of software. They are not entitled to any more. The other 75% of a sale is due to the developer themselves. It is not the right of PGHQ to hold that money for any lenght of time OVER what the Partnership agreement states.

To Quote the Partnership agreement out on PalmGear's Developer area:

"Payments are made by check to partners once a month between the 15th and 30th for the prior calendar months registrations/sales. Checks will only be sent quarterly for amounts less than $100. PalmGear.com will not issue 1099 forms to the author since this is considered a business expense/inventory purchase, it is the software Partner's responsibility to report income made."

This doesn't state.. they have the RIGHT to hold payments. It is the Developer's rights to obtain what was paid to THEM.... Consumers aren't paying Palmgear for their purchases. PalmGear has already stated in the Parnership agreement they don't sell software. They only sell the service. It seems, to me at this point, they are thinking they own the softare, and can distribute funds as they wish. I have not given the rights of monies due me to be used for the continued operating expenses of their web-site.

I'm sure I'll hear about this from PalmGear...... but that is OK. I'm not one to be afraid of a web-site and their actions.

I know this much. Since I know my sales for the month of May have exceeded the $100 threshold ...... I will be expecting a check at the end of June for my total sales in May (Minus the 25% commission). If this AGREEMENT with PalmGear (which is supossed to work both ways) is not met by them ... they will end up with some legal ramifications I would expect.

Not paying a developer the monies due .... seems like 'theft' to me. To make some 'gesture' of giving the developers only 80% of their sales in a one-lump sum... or all of it over the next 3 years .... definately seems to void their Agreement.

I'm starting to feel Seller's remorse .......... I just didn't know where else to put my 'stuff' to sell. ..... I don't want to host a site... to sell my stuff.... but maybe I should look into pdagreen or some of those other sites out there..... Course I would think they might have some issues as well. Currently I only sell on PGHQ... but seems I need to open my eyes... to the rest of the web out there. I made a bad assumption when I started posting out there... that everyone goes to PalmGear..... definately seems... based on the posts and resonses this isn't the case.

I chose PalmGear ... based on my experiences as a consumer. I've not had any problems/issues with them.

I'm curious about the response from PalmDeveloper. It was stated they hadn't been paid for the first 5 months of 2002. Did you mean 2003? or in fact 2002? If, in fact the months of non-payment, were in 2002..... have they cleaned up their act since then? Are they paying per month, as in their partner agreement?

I am very sorry for what has happened in the past with the developers ..... I'm curious if it is still going on today?

[PalmDeveloper]

Originally posted by the_iceman


Not paying a developer the monies due .... seems like 'theft' to me. To make some 'gesture' of giving the developers only 80% of their sales in a one-lump sum... or all of it over the next 3 years .... definately seems to void their Agreement.


They didnt offer to give us developers 80 % in a one-lump sum, they offered as 20 % (!!!).

Originally posted by the_iceman

I'm curious about the response from PalmDeveloper. It was stated they hadn't been paid for the first 5 months of 2002. Did you mean 2003? or in fact 2002? If, in fact the months of non-payment, were in 2002..... have they cleaned up their act since then? Are they paying per month, as in their partner agreement?

I am very sorry for what has happened in the past with the developers ..... I'm curious if it is still going on today?

No, I meant 2002. They still have not paid us a cent from that period. They are paying per month for sales after May 2002, but they have no plans of ever giving back to us what they have stolen from us.

And if you too are a developer, this day is the last day to pull your software from Palmgear, if you dont you risk getting a demand from Palmgear that YOU must pay THEM $2 for every download copy of your application if they find that your software does not live up to their "partner" agreement.

[the_iceman]

I have added the 'visit www.palmgear'... to my theme credits .... for purchases and even in my registered versions. I've placed their web-site in the README files as well..... I am in complience with them.

I thought they were going to add 'buttons' next to our software to show which are in ... and which are not in complience. Seems they should be doing this prior to enforcing it..... IMHO

[KennyWest]

Originally posted by PalmDeveloper

And if you too are a developer, this day is the last day to pull your software from Palmgear, if you dont you risk getting a demand from Palmgear that YOU must pay THEM $2 for every download copy of your application if they find that your software does not live up to their "partner" agreement.

Not entirely true, tomorrow is the end of the 30 days and additionally on the Terms of Submission page there are options you can choose from, one of which extends by another 45. As well you may send any to compliant@palmgear.com for review.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by KennyWest


Not entirely true, tomorrow is the end of the 30 days and additionally on the Terms of Submission page there are options you can choose from, one of which extends by another 45. As well you may send any to compliant@palmgear.com for review.

And, he didn't even address the non-payment issues! Geesh!!

[Scott Baker]

I've read some of these postings, talked to some friends that have dealt with Palmgear, and have come to rhe following conclusions. Palmgear must make Bill Gates biography required study material to work there. For those familiar with Star Trek, some of their ( P/G ) management team must be members of the BORG. To the little guys trying to make it, it's " YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE !! " Way to hold on to your customer base P/G !!! :mad:

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Scott Baker
I've read some of these postings, talked to some friends that have dealt with Palmgear, and have come to rhe following conclusions. Palmgear must make Bill Gates biography required study material to work there. For those familiar with Star Trek, some of their ( P/G ) management team must be members of the BORG. To the little guys trying to make it, it's " YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE !! " Way to hold on to your customer base P/G !!! :mad:

Looks like the P/G Management is ONLY $$$ oriented with no regards at all any longer for the developers nor the customers. Far cry from the original P/G!

[the_iceman]

well.... from a consumer perspective.... they are doing it all.... they are consumer based... not developer based as a whole. They, in my opinion, do have the best site for purchasing software. Their search engine is great. and showing consumers new and updated software on their home page .... etc etc etc. So... with me being a consumer... I honestly think they have the best consumer site. I think in order to make their site better for the consumer ... they are making it more difficult for the developer ... who is the one who should be making the $$$ from the sales. I don't really believe... all these changes they are making (and it is evident in the Partner Agreement) is for the good of the developer AND PalmGear. The changes made are for the benefit of PalmGear ONLY.

On PalmGear's defense ...... it is their web-site ... it is their business.... and they have the right to operate it as they wish. I think it would be unwise for them to 'not pay developers' for the sales, whether it be in the past or the present. That seems like a huge class-action lawsuit in my opinion. But with the changes they are making .... we as developers do have the right/choice to either post our software in accordance with the Partner Agreement or not. The Partner Agreement MUST be adhered to by BOTH PalmGear and the developers.

The negative changes PalmGear has pushed out to the developers will only solicit MORE competition from existing Palm Sales sites. Developers will end up ensuring their software is distributed to multiple sites to try and gain the most customers as possible. Some may even remove themselves from PalmGear itself.

PalmGear would not be in business today without the developers. It is poor they are changing what has made palmgear successful in the past in order to make attempts at monopolizing sales to only point in their direction.

I do see fallout happening in the future...... and to all developers out there... You are supported with any decisions you make in regards to Your Own Software.

I think I made a comment before .... (too lazy to see if it was in this thread) ...... that I would hate to go to walmart... buy a CD Player... and have an 'embossment' on it stating it was purchased at WalMart. Products which have a WalMart Brand ... are manufactured for WalMart themselves. Let WalMart start such a practice ... and see how quickly they go under.

[Gadgtfrk]

Hey Mr. West

How about responding to the non payment to developer posts and not just the one that is easy for you.

Obviously you are reading them.

Take care
Dave

[KennyWest]

It is impossible to be specific to the ones posted here regarding payment as I do not know the posters identity and even in that instance if we did know their identity would, for the obvious reasons and privacy concerns, be reticent to post here. What I can say is that we are current with payments and have been for quite some time now. For past AP (talking the first few months of 2002) there were some issues which have been addressed with each developer individually.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by KennyWest
....addressed with each developer individually.

"addressed" is vague. Have they ALL been paid? I think that is what we want to hear ;-)

[Alistar]

I wonder.
Sicne the default for non-compliance is the $2 charge (as I have gathered from what is posted)
what happens with programs that are dead in the water. The developer has mysteriously disappeared or something. Will they continue to charge $2 even if they cannot get a hold of them.
Perhaps they are on a sabatical to Amazon Jungles and won't be near a computer for a couple of years, will they recieve a nasty shock when they come back and find a several thousand dollar debt with Palmgear?

[Gadgtfrk]

Mr. West

Thank you for your prompt reply.
I hope that you are not taking any of these concerns personally.
I absolutely respect you for ,what seems to me at least in this forum, taking all the heat for Palmgear.

I do understand the privacy concerns regarding payments.

Take care
Dave

[tanker_bob]

Kenny,

Here's a privacy-sensitive approach that has one of two one-word answers: Are there any developers who have not been paid for their sales through PG from any period past or present? Only possible answers = yes or no.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by tanker_bob
Kenny,

Here's a privacy-sensitive approach that has one of two one-word answers: Are there any developers who have not been paid for their sales through PG from any period past or present? Only possible answers = yes or no.

I don't think I would hold my breath on this one, sorry to say.

[Hannibal]

Originally posted by Alistar
I wonder.
Sicne the default for non-compliance is the $2 charge (as I have gathered from what is posted)
what happens with programs that are dead in the water. The developer has mysteriously disappeared or something. Will they continue to charge $2 even if they cannot get a hold of them.
Perhaps they are on a sabatical to Amazon Jungles and won't be near a computer for a couple of years, will they recieve a nasty shock when they come back and find a several thousand dollar debt with Palmgear?
good point. i wonder how they will deal with that. looks like a lousy setup from reading the thread here. i like the idea of doing a google search and buying directly from the developers and bypassing this type of baloney.

[sebring]

I have defended Palmgear in this forum before, and I still find their app page to contain much more of the information about an app, that is important to me, than any other site.

However, after repeated instances of Palmgear suppressing my negative reviews, with thoughtful, legitimate issues and containing no profanity or unwarranted or personal attacks, I can no longer support or defend Palmgear. This suppression of legitimate negative reviews is no less than false advertising, on the part of Palmgear.

For the record, I have also posted many positive reviews, which always seem to appear.

[tanker_bob]

Same here. Like yours, my negative reviews are specific and issue related. My positive ones always appear, but the negative ones never to anymore. Knowing that the repress the bad ones, reviews on PG are no longer of any value to me--as you say, false advertising.

I note the lack of reply to my earlier inquiry about PG debts to developers. I think that the deafening silence provides the answer. It seems that, in a sense, they are doing to developers what QVentures did to them several years ago. That's shameful. I will no longer be defending PalmGear in these forums, or purchasing software through them when I have a choice. I will be removing all possible references to them and their pages as I update my site.

[Don M]

Me too on unapproved negative reviews. And agreed, this is tantamount to false advertising! I've just about had it and am buying elsewhere whenever possible.

[*YellowRose*]

Originally posted by tanker_bob
Same here. Like yours, my negative reviews are specific and issue related. My positive ones always appear, but the negative ones never to anymore. Knowing that the repress the bad ones, reviews on PG are no longer of any value to me--as you say, false advertising.

I note the lack of reply to my earlier inquiry about PG debts to developers. I think that the deafening silence provides the answer. It seems that, in a sense, they are doing to developers what QVentures did to them several years ago. That's shameful. I will no longer be defending PalmGear in these forums, or purchasing software through them when I have a choice. I will be removing all possible references to them and their pages as I update my site. Well, Tanker Bob ~ that's really sad for PalmGear. I've always respected your calm, patient outlook in all areas relating to PDAs . . . I know your web page has helped me, plus the countless people I've referred there. It's a sad day, indeed, for PalmGear.

You know, I replied in a 'Most Favorite App' thread (elsewhere, on a different site). I put in links to all the apps I named . . . and didn't link ONCE to PalmGear (out of 15 or so apps). If EVERYBODY refuses to use them, eventually, they'll have to 'take notice' or go out of business.

Thanks again, TB for all your great advice, perspective, and an outstanding website.

[tanker_bob]

Originally posted by *YellowRose*
Well, Tanker Bob ~ that's really sad for PalmGear. I've always respected your calm, patient outlook in all areas relating to PDAs . . . I know your web page has helped me, plus the countless people I've referred there. It's a sad day, indeed, for PalmGear.

You know, I replied in a 'Most Favorite App' thread (elsewhere, on a different site). I put in links to all the apps I named . . . and didn't link ONCE to PalmGear (out of 15 or so apps). If EVERYBODY refuses to use them, eventually, they'll have to 'take notice' or go out of business.

Thanks again, TB for all your great advice, perspective, and an outstanding website.
Thank you very much for your kind words.

I have delayed taking this action as long as I thought prudent. Kenny West's openness in the beginning of this issue kept me on the fence. PG has always done well by me over the years, so I have no personal bone to pick. However as a community, we have to support developers. If they don't find programming profitable, then the community is diminished by the resulting reduction in application choices. PG has ridden the wave of their work for some years now, providing a valuable connection between the developers and the community. But the developers didn't cause PG's problems, and PG's solution shouldn't be built on their backs. I have no problem with the branding of apps--other sites require that. The $2/download penalty will not bother the large developers, but inevitably hurt those who can least afford the impact. To me, delisting non-compliants is the honest answer, but seems beyond PG's ability to comprehend the politics of our community.

I take this action with regret, but it seems we have PG's final answer. In our economy, they are free to do as seems best to them. By the same token, I am free to remove them from my website as it seems the best response to me. Others will make their own choices.

Thank you again for your kind post.

[the_iceman]

I'd felt ... that PG was the place to list software.... I have become more 'educated' in ways.... and have begun to diversify to other sites. I'm sure many other developers have started this process as well, if they hadn't done it before.

The unfortunates .... from a developer side .... is that I like the way the DEVELOPER section is in PG. Handango is more of a royal pain in the butt.... but it works 'ok'. PG has a much better method of posting new software .... although with HanDango ... you just 'activate' your software... instead of PG going in and 'approving' the software. *shrug*

[n2ifp]

It seems to me that it's almost not worth the trouble being a developer anymore, from my perspective as a consumer :(

I suppose PalmGear can do what they want, it's their choice to either sink or swim!

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by n2ifp
It seems to me that it's almost not worth the trouble being a developer anymore, from my perspective as a consumer :( Most of us developers don't do it for "worth" in that sense. I mean, sure, we make our livings programming more often than not, but not on the Palm so much. If you have low expenses (e.g. college student) and boundless energy, you can probably do it; I did it on the HP LX series in the late 80s. But more often we get annoyed at the lack of something and we build it, and then we polish it before either submitting it as open source or selling it to try to recoup some of the lost time. The additional features (like an interface) are often investments measuring incremental effort (time) against incremental revenue (sales), but for a lot of us, development is what we are, a mindset, an addiction.

It's not terribly different from people who rebuild cars all the time or climb mountains and then write books about it.

Keep in mind most of that process is not "development"; it's management. Tax forms, regulations, filings, negotiations for rent, phone, bandwidth, human resources and benefits administration, designing camera ready art, writing copy, arranging ads and reviews... the bulk of a development company's work is not actual development.

PalmGear helps independent developers avoid the bureaucracy and just develop. Maybe they suck, maybe not, but that's what they're for. And some real companies (i.e. have 3+ salaried employees) place their products on PalmGear also (though that will probably change, given their new license policies.) But the lack of PalmGear won't change whether programs are written; it just might change how easily other users find out about them and whether the programmer bothers uploading or polishing it.

[DanT]

What an educational reading. We just see what happens next. Myself, after reading this post will no longer use PG as the primary source for searching and purchasing apps. Checking the developer site would be my first attempt.

[tanker_bob]

Dan,

It won't be much of a loss. When I removed PG references from my website yesterday, I was amazed at how many apps had other points of access. Hooray for Google. FreewarePalm had almost all the free apps. Almost everything else had another source, but not quite. I had one that had no developer site and was only available via PG. It looks to me that many developers have already diversified out from PG. I still think that it's a shame. Poor management can kill a great idea in a heartbeat.

[DanT]

tanker_bob, thanks for the tips. Google is a cool site. Just wish FreewarePalm were a bit less tacky with those persistent ads (spams?). I guess that's what you pay for visiting freeware sites.

[tanker_bob]

There are some good apps to supress pop-ups. One of the best, although annoying because it also prevents new browser windows you want if you forget to bypass it, is StealthRay, but it's not free. I know there are free ones out there. I use Norton Internet Security which can block ads and pop-ups, globally and/or tailored by site.

[Don M]

I do a Google search to locate the developer's site, if they have one, then buy directly from the developer if possible and Palmgear as a last resort if not available at any other Palm software site.

[*YellowRose*]

Originally posted by tanker_bob
There are some good apps to supress pop-ups. One of the best, although annoying because it also prevents new browser windows you want if you forget to bypass it, is StealthRay, but it's not free. I know there are free ones out there. I use Norton Internet Security which can block ads and pop-ups, globally and/or tailored by site. You know ~ I found one way to get rid of annoying pop-ups. Try Mozilla Firebird. You can find it here (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firebird/releases.html) Just grab the latest milestone build.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by *YellowRose*
You know ~ I found one way to get rid of annoying pop-ups. Try Mozilla Firebird. You can find it here (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firebird/releases.html) Just grab the latest milestone build. I'm using Mozilla 1.4 right now. Unfortunately, ClieSource is not friendly with my primary browser, Opera. (Probably works with Opera7, but I like Opera6.)

Back to the point, both Opera and Mozilla allow you to easily disable pop-ups. Wonderful thing. And both support tabbed views, meaning you can have lots of documents in a single frame rather than having separate app windows everywhere.

[DanT]

tanker_bob &amp; *Yellow Rose* thanks for the tips.

I tried to install the MozillaFirebird, but it froze during installation so I aborted (Alt-Ctrl-deleted) it. There is a big possibility that i didn't do it right. From the link, I clicked on 'Download the latest Mozilla Firebird nightly build' which led to another page with the following optionS:
1. Firebird-mac.dmq.qz
2. MozillaFirebirdi686-pc-linux-qnu.tar.qz
3. MozillaFirebird-win32.zip.
I use PC running win98se, so I figured the option 3 was for me, but when I double clicked on MozillaFirebird.exe, MozillaFirebird window poped up with a blank screen, did I mess up somewhere?

[Alistar]

I never had to install Firebird. I just extracted the zip to a directory and ran the exe file. I downloaded a bunch of extensions/plug-ins and some themes.

I am running Win98se as well on an intell 600Mhz laptop. No problem so far.

[*YellowRose*]

Originally posted by Alistar
I never had to install Firebird. I just extracted the zip to a directory and ran the exe file. I downloaded a bunch of extensions/plug-ins and some themes.This is what I did also.

DanT, just extract all the files from the zip file (extract all), and click on MozillaFirebird.exe. I have mine Firebird folder in my root directory, but it's not necessary, you can put it whereever it's convenient. It does not have (or need - YAY!) an installer like you're probably expecting. Your screen will be blank (you'll have your internet address line, forward, backward, etc, though) until you set your homepage.

Good luck!

[tanker_bob]

I found that Norton Internet Security blocks FreewarePalm's adds, including those in the pop-ups, but still allows the blank pop-up window to be created--very annoying. I hadn't used StealthRay in a while. They've since updated it so that I can now open new windows easily, but pop-ups are eliminated. It will also sanitize Internet sessions for the truly paranoid.

[thenightfly42]

Regarding FreewarePalm; has anyone noticed that it's just a rip of PalmGear? Not only are the descriptions the same, but the downloads come from PalmGear.

I still use them, and Firebird makes it painless, but everyone should realize that its just a "freeware filter" applied to PalmGearr.

[sebring]

Originally posted by tanker_bob
I found that Norton Internet Security blocks FreewarePalm's adds, including those in the pop-ups, but still allows the blank pop-up window to be created--very annoying. I hadn't used StealthRay in a while. They've since updated it so that I can now open new windows easily, but pop-ups are eliminated. It will also sanitize Internet sessions for the truly paranoid.

I use a combination of freeware apps, WebWasher and Popup Stopper that has virtually eliminated popup ads from my web browsing. Popup Stopper can be set to beep when it blocks a popup window. If it is a window you wanted to see, just hold the control key and re-click the link to open the blocked window. The only window I get is the initial one on freewarepalm, and I could probably block it also with WebWasher, but it could be at the expense of also blocking some things I do want to see.

[n2ifp]

I use Ad/Subtract Pro to kill the ads.

[Unregistered]

I'm late to this party because I just got my non-compliance email from PalmGear yesterday.

Whether PalmGear is fair or not is debatable, and you guys have done a good job debating it. But unless we developers want to have to create a different build for each site on which we list/offer our products, it would make sense to boycott any web site that requires what PalmGear is requiring.

Has there been any decrease in listings at PalmGear, or has the big gorilla gotten its way?

[n2ifp]

It used to be buyer beware, now it's buyer be damned!

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=19153

I haven't made any purchases lately, so I don't know if listings have dropped or not.