Any updates on Compact Flash Driver?

[Brownster]

Was curious is anyone had heard of any updates on the CF Driver. Curious if the beta testers are getting any further updates to test? I have checked the EruWare website thinking that I might find an update ;)

Curious as to where the driver is going and when will it get there.
Jim

[n2ifp]

Nope, haven't heard a thing. It's been very quiet and the beta testers are basically history. I suspect EruWare will take it's time now and look very closely at things. I am also sure the instant it comes out, people will be posting all about it :).

[Brownster]

Was hoping to see something from the developer here in ther forums. Hope he/they are reading the posts.

Jim

[ayasin]

Hi Jim,

We have been working out the kinks in the order process and dealing with various logistical issues. Now that things are smoothing out a bit we are back to working on the driver (not that we ever really quit). The next update will be out to beta testers probably relatively soon, and if it proves stable there, will be available to registered customers about a week after that. The next driver should be more stable and a faster, as well as potentially having a new feature or two. Thanks for your support :).

Amir

[Brownster]

Ayasin,

Figure ya'll might be busy getting orders and registration codes caught up :)

I will look forward to the next update. I have a 1gb CF to add to my collection...filling them up with MP3's and MQV's :)

Thanks,
Jim

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by Brownster
Was hoping to see something from the developer here in ther forums. Hope he/they are reading the posts.

Jim

Okay, but you did say you were curious if the beta testers were getting any updates. I was one of the beta testers and haven't heard a thing until now. That is why I replied to your post in case the developer didn't reply :).

[Halesy]

Ayasin,

First, thanks for making the driver, once I figure how best to use it I'm sure it'll useful.

My 2 cents - it needs to work with MS Import.

[jmg_NX21]

Hey Amir, NOW that you are a SENIOR member personalize your TITLE 'CF Driver Master' :P AND your avatar (use the CF Driver Icon)

THAT is is you have TIME for it ;)

Cool, thanks for the update!!

Is Nolan ever going to register OR are you the FRONTman??

[ejanssen]

Originally posted by ayasin
Now that things are smoothing out a bit we are back to working on the driver (not that we ever really quit). The next update will be out to beta testers probably relatively soon, and if it proves stable there, will be available to registered customers about a week after that. The next driver should be more stable and a faster, as well as potentially having a new feature or two. Thanks for your support :).

Amir

Great news! I'll have to admit that I didn't see much financial advantage for continuing work on the driver since updates are to be free. I'm looking forward to the update.

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by Halesy
My 2 cents - it needs to work with MS Import.

People actually use MS Import?

Erik

[OcellNuri]

I use it so much that for a time (before I got my keyboard) I had MSImport set to launch when I placed my unit in the cradle. :D

[tifosiv122]

Isn't an external reader/writer like 100x's faster on USB 2.0?

Erik

[Halesy]

I'm sure it is but some of the stuff I want needs to be converted to CLIE format (and some people don't have a USB2 card reader and would be loath to go buy one).

Now I could convert into my hard disk and then use my card reader to put it onto my CF, but in the end what am I saving? For smaller files not a lot. And it's less convenient.

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by tifosiv122
Isn't an external reader/writer like 100x's faster on USB 2.0?

Erik

Nope! The speed is limited to the Flash Card's data transfer rate. Yeah, USB2 can handle 480mbs, but if the card can only have throughput of 2.8mbs, that is as fast as it goes, period!

Basically USB2 is a waste now for a card reader!

I have a USB2 reader, I have built-in MS drive, but MS Import beats them all hands down!

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by n2ifp


Nope! The speed is limited to the Flash Card's data transfer rate. Yeah, USB2 can handle 480mbs, but if the card can only have throughput of 2.8mbs, that is as fast as it goes, period!

Basically USB2 is a waste now for a card reader!

I have a USB2 reader, I have built-in MS drive, but MS Import beats them all hands down!

I don't think so...please read my thread:

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12797

Erik

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by tifosiv122


I don't think so...please read my thread:

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12797

Erik

In my real world tests, I stand behind my statement, results are not even close! ! !

MS Import is by and far, considerably faster than any other method I have tried. This also includes using Sony's PCMCIA adapter in my Sony laptop which also has a MS reader. To copy 123mb approx, MS Import beats everything by a full 2 minutes either on my Sony VAIO laptop or desktop, my brother who is similiarly equipped concurs with my findings. 

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by n2ifp


In my real world tests, I stand behind my statement, results are not even close! ! !

MS Import is by and far, considerably faster than any other method I have tried. This also includes using Sony's PCMCIA adapter in my Sony laptop which also has a MS reader. To copy 123mb approx, MS Import beats everything by a full 2 minutes either on my Sony VAIO laptop or desktop, my brother who is similiarly equipped concurs with my findings. 

I will take a video if you want...2:15 min for External 4:20 min for MS Import....same file same MS.

Erik

[n2ifp]

I have just the opposite, sorry, MS Import beats them all, I just don't say that for my good looks! Now maybe in your situation it's different. I am NOT saying your a liar, I am only relating my experiences here. I just know what I have here and what my brother has upstairs with his computers. I just didn't start yesterday (not meant as sarcasim), so I know my equipment. If you say you get better results the other way fine, I cannot offer an explaination as to why the differences. My esperience with my N760C, NR70, and NX70 have been the same, this includes my Sony DCS707 camera which also transfers very fast.

I hope your not inferring that I am a liar either, but it's good to share our experiences. That's why I have said when people are comparing VFS marks with each other it has no validity as each setup is different.

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by n2ifp
I have just the opposite, sorry, MS Import beats them all, I just don't say that for my good looks! Now maybe in your situation it's different. I am NOT saying your a liar, I am only relating my experiences here. I just know what I have here and what my brother has upstairs with his computers. I just didn't start yesterday (not meant as sarcasim), so I know my equipment. If you say you get better results the other way fine, I cannot offer an explaination as to why the differences. My esperience with my N760C, NR70, and NX70 have been the same, this includes my Sony DCS707 camera which also transfers very fast.

I hope your not inferring that I am a liar either, but it's good to share our experiences. That's why I have said when people are comparing VFS marks with each other it has no validity as each setup is different.

I understand you aren't calling me a liar (and I don't think you are either) except it makes no sense that a device could possibly transfer a file quicker when it uses software then a device that is just hardware. The Clie (using MS Import) calls software into play in order to transfer the file. The Reader does not (well drivers, but then so does MS Import). Several factors could contribute to our differences. The only thing we have in common is the Clie's...but our Readers are different (I am assuming) and our USB ports are different. If you read through my other 2 posts you will see that other people have noticed that an external device is quicker. I had another reader (Lexar to be exact) that was horrible. Transfer rates were slow and it kept on 'losing' the drives. I got my new PNY one and its lighting quick. Maybe (possibly) your external reader isn't as fast as it could be. I see you live in NJ, anytime you want, let me know (I also live in NJ) and i'd be more then happy to let you borrow my external reader to get some data yourself. I understand that YMMV in items like this but I am just going with basic concepts...simpler is usually faster...no software needed.

In any case, if you find MS Import to be faster....use it..save yourself the time, but people need to be aware that it might be quicker some other way.

Just a thought, do you have HD Tach or would you be willing to D/L the demo and run a benchmark? I am very curious to see your results!

Erik

[Unregistered]

Reader much faster for me too.

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by tifosiv122


I understand you aren't calling me a liar (and I don't think you are either) except it makes no sense that a device could possibly transfer a file quicker when it uses software then a device that is just hardware. The Clie (using MS Import) calls software into play in order to transfer the file. The Reader does not (well drivers, but then so does MS Import). Several factors could contribute to our differences. The only thing we have in common is the Clie's...but our Readers are different (I am assuming) and our USB ports are different. If you read through my other 2 posts you will see that other people have noticed that an external device is quicker. I had another reader (Lexar to be exact) that was horrible. Transfer rates were slow and it kept on 'losing' the drives. I got my new PNY one and its lighting quick. Maybe (possibly) your external reader isn't as fast as it could be. I see you live in NJ, anytime you want, let me know (I also live in NJ) and i'd be more then happy to let you borrow my external reader to get some data yourself. I understand that YMMV in items like this but I am just going with basic concepts...simpler is usually faster...no software needed.

In any case, if you find MS Import to be faster....use it..save yourself the time, but people need to be aware that it might be quicker some other way.

Just a thought, do you have HD Tach or would you be willing to D/L the demo and run a benchmark? I am very curious to see your results!

Erik

Do you have a link for the demo?

I do have a SanDisk 6 in 1 USB2 Reader and a Adaptec USB2/Firewire card. For my Maxtor external 80GB drive, the difference between USB1.1 and USB2, is like night and day. The external drive seems to be every bit as fast as the internal Maxtor hard drives. The point is, I am disappointed that the external card reader wasn't any faster. It's faster than my built-in MS drive, but slower than MS Import. Additionally I have two HP printers with internal readers, but they are slow as hell!

I pretty much have the same on my laptop with a built-in MS reader. If I use the MS to PCMCIA adapter it's faster than the MS drive. If I use a CF to PCMCIA it's also faster than an external reader, but the laptop has only USB1.1 ports. Using the laptop adapters I would assume it's normal to be faster than an external reader. I suspect the built-in MS readers are tied in with the floppy controller and have limited throughput.

I make rolling backup copies my memory stick almost on a daily basis to my external hard drive. No detectable speed difference is noticed whether I backup to internal or external drives. Throughput on those far exceed that of a memory stick anyway.

Now your not the first who has said that MS Import was slower, that is what has me puzzled. If I dump pics from Sony camera, it's also very quick. Your speed readings are just the opposite for me :confused:. I am not one who intentionally tries to mis-lead anyone!

BTW, where about's in Jersey do you live?

I would also be interested in hearing from others too, I see unregistered agrees with your findings :). 

[Unregistered]

What changes so much on your handheld that requires multiple backups everyday? You must have a very full calendar or something.

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by n2ifp


Do you have a link for the demo?

http://www.tcdlabs.com/hdtach.htm
You cannot write on the demo, but you can read.

Additionally I have two HP printers with internal readers, but they are slow as hell!

Ohh yeah, I have 2 {One is photo-specific} and its horrible.

I suspect the built-in MS readers are tied in with the floppy controller and have limited throughput.

Most likely is.


BTW, where about's in Jersey do you live?
Manalapan, Monmouth County...

I would also be interested in hearing from others too, I see unregistered agrees with your findings :). 

They are a few others in the other 2 threads.

Erik

[Halesy]

If we want to do a comparison of MS Import and Card Readers does someone want to suggest a standard test everyone should perform. This would make comparing results more valid - the test should not be too onerus though.

[CliePet]

> MS Import is by and far, considerably faster than any other method I have tried. ...
[and other comments on this thread]

In my case as well, MSImport is just as fast or a little bit faster than a standard USB reader (ie. reader = reader/writer).

The MS Import feature is essentially turning your PDA into a USB Memory stick reader (USB 1 data rate)

There are three bottlenecks for transfer / writing - the USB serial bus, the memory stick serial interface and the writing to flash chips inside the stick.

If you test copying from the memory stick back to the PC, you can remove the last factor.

For memory sticks, you can't avoid the second factor and is usually the limiting factor for reading data (getting the actual data in and out of the memory stick requires a proprietary serial bus). But the clock rate to the stick is FLEXIBLE - which makes some stick readers FASTER than others. This bottleneck does not exist for CF cards.

The USB transfer rate and other overhead usually makes the big difference between a good reader/write and a poor one (memory stick or CF). The MSImport connection is optimized for this connection so it does well compared to USB (1) stick readers.

If you are seeing significantly slower data rates with MSImport (compared to a USB 1 stick reader) then I suspect you may have a bad USB connection to your CLIE.

If however, the USB 1 memory stick reader is signficantly slower than MSImport, you may have a poor reader.

----
re: USB 2

As already pointed out, USB 2.0 stick / memory card readers may or may not run at expected USB 2 data rates.

USB 2.0 *memory stick* readers are not going to be significantly faster - because of the second factor mentioned above.

USB 2.0 CF readers with FAST CF cards, can be significantly faster.

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by CliePet
If you are seeing significantly slower data rates with MSImport (compared to a USB 1 stick reader) then I suspect you may have a bad USB connection to your CLIE.

I used the same USB port for both tests.

I still don't see how using software (MS Import) could be quicker then straight hardware.

Erik

[Halesy]

I've just done a very quick adhoc test. I copied 5 MP3s to both my MS via MS Import, and to my CF via my USB 1.1 Card Reader. The total file size was 25.8M, results as follows:

MS Import - 76s
USB Card Reader - 40s

To me the result is quite clear, or was this not a valid test scenario?

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by Halesy
I've just done a very quick adhoc test. I copied 5 MP3s to both my MS via MS Import, and to my CF via my USB 1.1 Card Reader. The total file size was 25.8M, results as follows:

MS Import - 76s
USB Card Reader - 40s

To me the result is quite clear, or was this not a valid test scenario?

I think those are the results you should see...the Reader should be close to twice as fast.

Erik

[Halesy]

BTW, the hard disk test doesn't work for Windows XP, it thinks this is NT and requires registration - I'd like to know the results but I wasn't planning on buying the program just to find out!

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by Halesy
BTW, the hard disk test doesn't work for Windows XP, it thinks this is NT and requires registration - I'd like to know the results but I wasn't planning on buying the program just to find out!

Sorry, I didn't know since mine is registered.

Erik

[CliePet]

> MS Import - 76s
> USB Card Reader - 40s

> To me the result is quite clear, or was this not a valid test
> scenario?

What brand "USB Card Reader" ?

That jives with what I see with a non-Sony brand stick reader (see comments above regarding how some readers use a faster clock rate).

I've found Sony brand readers to be safer for other reasons, but not necessarily the fastest of the lot.

-----

> I still don't see how using software (MS Import) could be quicker then straight hardware.

The distinction between software and hardware is somewhat artificial.

In both cases you have a PC computer sending USB serial data to another CPU/controller (either the CLIE CPU or a custom chip on the reader) that sends memory stick serial data to yet another CPU/controller (the custom chip that manages the memory stick)

The critical bottleneck for many things is that last step (sending serial data using the proprietary serial bus). That's one of the things they fixed with MS Pro.

[Halesy]

It's an "Imation - FlashGo!", see attached link. I've had any issues with it and I use it often.

http://www.imation.com/en_US/products/product_generic_1.jhtml?Id=IM_PRD334

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by CliePet

The distinction between software and hardware is somewhat artificial.

In both cases you have a PC computer sending USB serial data to another CPU/controller (either the CLIE CPU or a custom chip on the reader) that sends memory stick serial data to yet another CPU/controller (the custom chip that manages the memory stick)

The critical bottleneck for many things is that last step (sending serial data using the proprietary serial bus). That's one of the things they fixed with MS Pro.


There is still software running on the Clie to make this happen. So MS Import uses software and drivers and the reader only uses drivers.

Erik

[Halesy]

After re-reading your post CliePet I think we're getting our wires crossed. 

As I recently got the CF driver I'm a big fan ;D and now use it as my main storage device for MP3s, movies etc, with applications residing on my MS.  The testing with the Card Reader used a CF card, not an MS.  So I tested the MS in my Card Reader and the results are below (with a bit more details).  I've also retested to make sure of the numbers (both tests are shown i.e. test1/test2)..

This is why I asked if anyone wanted a standard test :-)

Sony Clie NX70V (all patches to date)
Card Reader - USB 1.1 Imation FlashGo!
MS Import - 76s/76s (Lexar 128M)
USB Card Reader (CF) - 40s/33s (Muse 24x, 512M)
USB Card Reader (MS) - 73s/75s (Same Lexar 128M as before)

Anyway, I'll be my Card Reader for large amounts of data.

[tifosiv122]

Originally posted by Halesy
After re-reading your post CliePet I think we're getting our wires crossed. 

As I recently got the CF driver I'm a big fan ;D and now use it as my main storage device for MP3s, movies etc, with applications residing on my MS.  The testing with the Card Reader used a CF card, not an MS.  So I tested the MS in my Card Reader and the results are below (with a bit more details).  I've also retested to make sure of the numbers (both tests are shown i.e. test1/test2)..

This is why I asked if anyone wanted a standard test :-)

Sony Clie NX70V (all patches to date)
Card Reader - USB 1.1 Imation FlashGo!
MS Import - 76s/76s (Lexar 128M)
USB Card Reader (CF) - 40s/33s (Muse 24x, 512M)
USB Card Reader (MS) - 73s/75s (Same Lexar 128M as before)

Anyway, I'll be my Card Reader for large amounts of data.

CF will usually be faster them MS, in fact I think almost always.

Erik

[CliePet]

re: CF v. MS speeds


> USB Card Reader (CF) - 40s/33s (Muse 24x, 512M)
> USB Card Reader (MS) - 73s/75s (Same Lexar 128M as before)

Ok, that one is an apple-to-oranges comparison
since you are mixing different memory cards and different interfaces.

BTW: You can find a close to 2x speed difference with different brands of USB *memory stick* readers too (and Sony 1st generation readers tend to be the slowest) -- using the SAME STICK!

That's why you should try several if you are looking for speed...

----
re: which is faster

In general the CF interface will be faster (parallel v. serial)

The performance of one CF card compared to a different MS will vary

My comparison of a normal memory stick with a normal speed CF card had the MS winning

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12285&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

----

re: Drivers/software/hardware

Your definition of "software" may vary...

Drivers are software
In fact most of the 'hardware' features you find in USB devices is done in software.
Some software is burned ito chips inside the device (often called firmware). That doesn't make it inherently faster or slower.

--
My point is that the data paths from your PC to a memory stick are essentially the same when using MS Import or a dedicated USB (1) stick reader. Any speed difference is due to the different implementations, not the architecture.

Comparing my Sony brand USB stick reader (MSAC-US1) and USB to CLIE through MS Import gives approximately the same performance. There are faster stick readers out there - but they are faster for a different reason.