1SRC Podcast 124

[Alan G]

This week we cover Palm's analyst day, the 1SRC editorial Palm, Inc 2.0, and more! [details (http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=1871)]

[Jimmie Geddes]

Great podcast as usual. You can't beam the Backup program because it's copy protected, I tried beaming it form my 700p to my 680. I posted a review of the Palm Backup Beta on my site:
http://gadgetsonthego.net/2007/04/review-of-palm-backup-beta.html

It works very well for what it does. I can see this being a standard app on future Treos. It gets your critical information back pretty fast. I'm surprised that Palm is releasing beta apps, it's a good move.

I agree with you on the Opera deal being for the Palm OS. It seems Palm is cutting ties to ACCESS.

I'm looking forward to the 755p, I love my 680, but I need EV-DO:) Hopefully Palm will release the long awaited 700p ROM update soon. I already know I'll be selling my 700p for the 755p:)

[Alan G]

You can't beam the Backup program because it's copy protected, I tried beaming it form my 700p to my 680.

You can't beam or BT send the Palm Backup app using the standard Palm OS Beam and Send commands, but you should be able to use something like Resco Explorer or FileZ as they don't care about the copy protect bit. I suspect that my problem was that I was trying to copy it from my 700p to my LifeDrive. I'll try it again later.

I'm really happy that Palm has released this as beta software. I've started compling a list of things that I would like to see added or enhanced such as the ability to select the time a scheduled back up runs. Or just knowing when a backup will run if I pick morning, evening, or over night. Also, I turned my cell radio off last night because I wanted to see what kind of error handling there was for missed backup jobs. There was no alert as far as I can tell that the job even ran at some point last night.

At this point, Palm and ACCESS have little need for each other.

Hopefully Palm will release the long awaited 700p ROM update soon.

The word on the 700p ROM update over on PIC and TC is that the upgrade will now be available after the 755p ships and after the 700p is EOL'ed. I think someone was talking about June for the update. This is really getting out of hand now. Are Palm and Apple really trying to be the next Microsoft?

Alan G

[Jimmie Geddes]

Alan you're right, using Filez I was able to beam it. It'd be nice to be able to set the time, because who really knows what time Morning, Afternoon, Evening, and Overnight fall into. I expect Palm will allow you to have more control like setting a specific time to backup in a future version, at least I hope.

I just read about the 700p ROM delay, that's not a good sign. I noticed this on the Palm blog:
"Several people have also brought up the Treo 700p maintenance release

* Look for an update on the Palm blog next week."

These delays are starting to get annoying, I was expecting Leopard by June. If Microsoft delayed Vista again Apple would have been making fun of them, it's kinda strange to see Apple fanboys saying things like "better baked, than undercooked". A delay is a delay, Palm seriously needs to put out a 700p update ASAP. Most people aren't going to buy a 755p as the ROM upgrade (I will) but that's a whole other story.

[Alan G]

I'm really not happy about the delays with Mac OS X 10.5 and the 700p ROM update. I'm seriously considering not getting a new Mac now until March/April 2008. (Ok I don't even believe that I will be able to hold out for another 12 months on my current PowerBook.)

The 700p's BT stack needs to get fixed. My new Sierra keyboard won't stay connected. ick.

Alan G

[rcartwr]

I'm seriously considering not getting a new Mac now until March/April 2008. (Ok I don't even believe that I will be able to hold out for another 12 months on my current PowerBook.) ick.
Alan G

Alan, Alan, Alan...your know there are programs for people like yourself...trapped in abusive relationships with their operating systems. Its not like Bill Gates gets up on stage all the time to tout how wonderful everything Microsoft does is. No one can accuse Microsoft of having an army of mindless zombies....err fanboys that drool over something that won't be out for months. With Microsoft, you know you are getting scr@#$# from the start and they don't pretend otherwise. Of course, so is everyone else, so that is ok.<G>

Rick C

[lajandy]

You made a good point about the Palm-Opera deal yielding a browser that works on Palm OS/Linux. I think a deal with Opera makes a lot of since for Palm for several reasons. Opera is widely seen as the most capable mobile browser, has a large installed base, and already runs on Linux-based OSes. Another good reason that I haven't seen anyone mention yet is ACCESS's positioning of future versions of NetFront. According to several documents ACCESS has released, they see NetFront becoming a pervasive component of ALP, to the point you can design the appearance of on-device apps using XHTML and JavaScript. Cool tech, but if Palm has decided not to use ALP, trying to extricate the new NetFront browser engine from the rest of ALP may be more difficult than in the past. Bringing Opera to Palm OS/Linux is much less risky and will should yield a highly capable browser w/o the browser taking over interface duties for the entire OS.

[g-funkster]

Opera was also trying to sell a browser based phone interface too, but obviously ACCESS has bigger goals for what its OS should do.

As for the browser, a large part of Access's income is that browser, it's very modular and moderately ;) capable. For example, the Sony PSP uses Netfront. Palm's Blazer is based on netfront. Netfront is not 'becoming' ALP, Access is merely leveraging its technologies.

[JAmerican]

What I find funny is how many Palm OS users said why is multitasking necessary on a small screen. I continuously preached that we need multitasking to just get shot down. Now we seem to be embracing it. LMAO!

Here's the big multitasking debate I had with Kirvin in July, 2005 (Almost 2 yrs ago wow!!)

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91663

BTW, Thank god Palm licensed WM. This place was so extremist. You were either with Palm or with the terror... I mean trolls. Just reading the thread above. I was so surprised.

JAmerican

[holvoetn]

Great podcast Alan, as usual ;)

On the backup application, I personally think it is a big miss.
Allow me to explain why.

You mentioned this application does not cost you anything extra. Just install and run. But ... it does require a dataplan, preferably unlimited (something you briefly touched). Outside US however these dataplans are not that much available and if they are, quite expensive. You need to pay for that, right ?

Second argument, if it is true that the application itself can not be copied to SD card for backup purposes (that's a pun, right ?), I see a huge issue. Whenever your device goes belly-up and all data is erased, you are completely stuck. No way to restore without going through some extra effort involving redownloading, hopefully you remembered your account details, etc. etc.
Unless you get 3th party backup solution which copies this Palm Backup app to a backup set so you can restore the application from there but then you negate the need to have Palm's application to start with.

Next argument: I don't know about you but I am pretty sensitive about having MY data being stored on OTHER servers that I do not control or where I do not know who is controlling them and what is being done to prevent unauthorized entry. Not that my data is that mission critical, but it is just how I think ...

Last argument: for now this application is in beta and seems to be free. What will it cost when it goes commercial ? I never believe Palm is going to store all that data for free (see what Dataviz did ...).

I personally think having a SD card backup solution is ALWAYS better then what Palm is offering here, whatever way you look at it.
I do think it is nice to see they are trying to provide additional value to their customers, but I can not help thinking in the back of my mind this has something to do about generating additional revenue for the carriers (since it will be their dataplans that need to be used).

[Alan G]

What I find funny is how many Palm OS users said why is multitasking necessary on a small screen. I continuously preached that we need multitasking to just get shot down. Now we seem to be embracing it. LMAO!

OK, I'll give you this round. However I still think that mutlitasking applications on a small screen is questionable. The only place that I see the need for multitasking right now, is to enable the ability to have a data connection open while on a voice call.

BTW, Thank god Palm licensed WM. This place was so extremist. You were either with Palm or with the terror... I mean trolls. Just reading the thread above. I was so surprised.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I still dislike Windows Mobile.

Alan G

[Alan G]

You mentioned this application does not cost you anything extra. Just install and run. But ... it does require a dataplan, preferably unlimited (something you briefly touched). Outside US however these dataplans are not that much available and if they are, quite expensive. You need to pay for that, right ?

Yes, you are correct. While the Palm Backup Beta is free, for now, it is strongly suggested that you should have an unlimited a data plan. Unless you are using Sprint, that can be an expensive proposition. In your neck of the woods, it is even more expensive. Palm did touch on cutting the cost of wireless service overseas. Obviously their is still a lot of work that still needs to be done.

Second argument, if it is true that the application itself can not be copied to SD card for backup purposes (that's a pun, right ?), I see a huge issue. Whenever your device goes belly-up and all data is erased, you are completely stuck. No way to restore without going through some extra effort involving redownloading, hopefully you remembered your account details, etc. etc.

The application is "locked" however FileZ and Resco Backup can beam or BT send the application. I was reading the FAQs yesterday at lunch and Palm's answer to not being able to copy the app to the card is to go to the download page and redownload the app, reinstall, and then restore. I would agree that it would be easier to simply load the app off the card and restore. Since Backup is still in beta it is hard to know what the intent really is. I plan on submitting an email with several suggestions in it.



Next argument: I don't know about you but I am pretty sensitive about having MY data being stored on OTHER servers that I do not control or where I do not know who is controlling them and what is being done to prevent unauthorized entry. Not that my data is that mission critical, but it is just how I think ...

I was too and I understand your concern. I lost the concept of my personal data ever being "private" once the US government when crazy with the anti-terror laws that were enacted after the September 11, 2001 attacks. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure. So now if I believe my personal information really isn't personal anymore at least I can make my life a little bit easier by parking my data on a "secure" server on the Internet.

Last argument: for now this application is in beta and seems to be free. What will it cost when it goes commercial ? I never believe Palm is going to store all that data for free (see what Dataviz did ...).

Agreed. If you read the FAQs, it is clear that this software is free because it is in beta and that there will be some charge for it's use in the future when it goes 1.0. I don't know what it will cost. I can see them charging $30/year for this service. That is why I mentioned that NVBackup can do this right now for free if you have access to your own FTP server. I am thinking about contacting Jan over at Resco and requesting the same FTP server access that Alex Pruss has included in NVBackup. At least if the data is on my (hosted) FTP server I can at least control the *nix security. (Until Big Brother comes knocking anyway.)

I personally think having a SD card backup solution is ALWAYS better then what Palm is offering here, whatever way you look at it.

True. This can be a way for Palm to generate extra revenue for the carriers and off set the cost for server storage space (which should be smaller than a full Treo back up since it is only pulling personal data, not applications) and maybe an incentive to lower the cost the customer has to pay for the initial purchase price of the Treo.

I still like the idea of parking data on an Internet accessable server for the simple fact of recovering from the loss of the Treo and the SD card. Yes, I know that you can HotSync and restore, but what if you are on the road? It is a slim possibility for us, but I'm thinking about what if an exec is using a Treo (no SD card) and needs to restore while away from the office. This idea has some merit, and will depend on each company to figure out how data will be restored.

Alan G

[JAmerican]

OK, I'll give you this round. However I still think that mutlitasking applications on a small screen is questionable. The only place that I see the need for multitasking right now, is to enable the ability to have a data connection open while on a voice call.



Oh, don't get me wrong. I still dislike Windows Mobile.

Alan G

I do agree that Windows multitasking could use a little fine tuning. I think they should allow users to enter a control panel option for multitasking or just closing applications after you open then. Things like the camera being open in the background is stupid. WM6 is said to be way faster so I am waiting for that.

JAmerican

[ewah]

I'd like to see what you guys think about this idea.

Palm is going to linux - yea! They have to provide a layer for all of the old palm programs similiar to what they did a number of years back when they changed processors. So why not create a palm platform emulation for any device that runs linux period. This way I could use my n800 and all of my old palm apps. Palm would extend their reach, get people like me who don't want a smart phone and in reality what would be really cool is if I could install this software on say my linux home machine, then put my palm programs and data on an SD card, now I could run my palm apps on my desktop computer directly! Put the SD card back in the n800 and again run them there.

....and then I woke up from the dream.

tim

[JAmerican]

How do you like the N800? It looks like the perfect laptop-replacement from hardware but software size, seems kind of weak.

JAmerican

[Alan G]

They have to provide a layer for all of the old palm programs similiar to what they did a number of years back when they changed processors. So why not create a palm platform emulation for any device that runs linux period. This way I could use my n800 and all of my old palm apps.

This isn't possible because Linux or the Palm OS would have to be customized for each device it runs on. Who would do those customizations? Palm? Nokia? How much would a replacement OS kit cost? $80? More? In a situation like this, Nokia would have to do the customizations and would need to become a licensee of Palm's new OS. And Palm has already made it clear that they will not be licensing Palm OS II.

Alan G

[ewah]

How do you like the N800? It looks like the perfect laptop-replacement from hardware but software size, seems kind of weak.

JAmerican

All in all I love the n800. There are a few things that keep it from being the perfect pda but the hardware/platform is a winner. The software just needs to catch up. Some of the pros and cons.

Cons
1. Doesn't support a true sync'ing. (it does have a backup procedure but this only gets part of the unit, mainly the apps installed don't get backed up but the data does.)
2. The unit shuts down apps and still reboots too much for me. (They seem to have an issue where a program or programs can swamp either the processor or the memory. It is a true multitasking unit so I often have email downloading in the background, the audio player going, bluetooth to my phone/wifi surfing the web... At times the unit will just give up and either kill one of the programs (with a nice note) or the whole unit just reboots itself. This is much improved over the n770 but still I wish it didn't happen. Just to give you an idea it happens once a week, and I use it heavily.
3. The biggest drawback, no really good Contacts and Calendar function. There are a couple of PIM programs, one sync's to Evolution, etc but they just don't have that easy palm pilot feel to them. A good example is that on one of the programs I don't remember which the monthly view doesn't get updated until you close the program and reload it... Very crappy.

Pros
1. Screen size and resolution. 800x480x65355 colors. I just can't look at anything less anymore.
2. True multitasking, with the exception noted above it is like having a real computer in the palm of my hand.
3. Builtin Stereo speakers along with the builtin flip out bracket for a stand. This let you place the unit on your desk and listen to or watch the unit in comfort and surprising clarity.
4. TWO SD Card slots. This is so nice you can't imagine. One is internal (inside the battery compartment) and one is accessible outside the unit. Along with the units ability to use virtual memory can allow the unit to have a large amount of data available. I currently have 2 2G SD cards in the unit. The internal card has my extra 128M of virtual memory along with data I always carry with me. This gives the unit 256M of RAM for operation (128 + 128). The external 2G is for data that just migrates through the unit, podcasts, songs I'm currently into, etc. What is cool is that even thou the unit cannot format cards larger than 2G people have reported certain 8G cards working for a total of 16G's of replaceable storage. Need I say more. Also if you are not using either SD card at the moment when you plug in the usb cable to your PC both SD cards are available. If you are using one, only the other one is available. Very nice for Nokia to understand this.
5. Battery life is excellent. I listen to podcasts constantly in my car, at home during commercials, etc. In other words I'm a nut. I use the wifi to check my email (Claws email was just ported over) surf the web, etc and I only charge the unit maybe every other day. To give you a better idea after having my email open checking for mail every 10 minutes, surfing the web and having a podcast playing the unit will need to be plugged in after about 4 hours. Keep in mind the wifi is connected this entire time.

Another thought the unit is meant to be kept on all the time. At first this seems wrong, but it works. The unit has a way of locking the keys and touch screen so you simply lock the unit slip it into your breast pocket or whereever and when you need it quickly unlock and go. Very nice. I always have my browser, email, audio player loaded right where I left off.

Lastly I don't recommend this for everyone. It is still very much a development/power user type of device. I've given up some very nice features that the Palm has (in fact my lifedrive is in the glove box of my car for the few times I need it each week) and some might just not think it is worth it, If you are someone who loves to be catching the new wave just incase this wave changes the world this unit is for you. It very well could end up as just another neat device that never got traction but I think the combination of Open Source, Linux and the Hardware/form factor has made this unit a winner.

tim

[ewah]

This isn't possible because Linux or the Palm OS would have to be customized for each device it runs on. Who would do those customizations? Palm? Nokia? How much would a replacement OS kit cost? $80? More? In a situation like this, Nokia would have to do the customizations and would need to become a licensee of Palm's new OS. And Palm has already made it clear that they will not be licensing Palm OS II.

Alan G

I think if they took the approach like JAVA does it could work. Simply create a VM that runs on windows/linux/mac. They could then sell the VM to whoever wanted it or if you purchased one of the new palm devices you could also install this piece seperately on your computer. There might be some issues just as with Java interfacing with the hardware but I've learned that nothing with computers is impossible it just might not make business sense and there is a big difference between the two.

That said I don't think they will ever do this, not because it isn't possible but because Palm is like the Mac, a hardware company and to sell hardware you have to lock in the software. In a perfect world palm would open source their old unsupported palm os like 4.x or something and let the world take it where it can go.

tim

[Alan G]

In a perfect world palm would open source their old unsupported palm os like 4.x or something and let the world take it where it can go.

The Palm OS is no longer under Palm's control. The Palm OS is owned by ACCESS. And there is a clause in the Palm/ACCESS license agreement that will prevent any version of the Palm OS from ever being released into the public domain. (This was stated in a recent Palm SEC filing.)

Alan G

[ewah]

The Palm OS is no longer under Palm's control. The Palm OS is owned by ACCESS. And there is a clause in the Palm/ACCESS license agreement that will prevent any version of the Palm OS from ever being released into the public domain. (This was stated in a recent Palm SEC filing.)

Alan G

I guess that is the end of that dream! I wonder what the WINE folks are doing... <grin>

[Palmloyal.com]

Great cast, Alan. I downloaded it Friday morning via Resco Neeews, but just around to listening to it today.

I talked about "Backing up the Treo to the Internet" back in July of 2005 in my Podcast #3. Good to see Palm taking a crack at this. It still need some work, which the beta should provide some input.

Read the review at http://www.palmloyal.com/addons.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17924

[Alan G]

I talked about "Backing up the Treo to the Internet" back in July of 2005 in my Podcast #3.

I know. I enjoyed those podcasts.

Alan G

[danielmaradona]

I believe that having the linux kernel under Garnet will add more capabilities for the Palm OS as a platform in General. It will remove some of the limitation that Garnet has in running some of the features which is needed in current mobile environment.... Look what is happening to windows mobile, in my own perspective it has incorporated a lot of features that the majority of mobile users need like Multi -tasking and built-in support for 3G and other multi connectivity features. The current scenario is that Palm will maintain the current Palm OS Garnet interface and will add some of the features under the OS. - I mean the capabilities that we are craving that we can do under Palm OS.... that we can talk to the phone while downloading something with the 3G connection running...