I believe that palm software should be FREE PERIOD

[blueflame]

therefor, I have a website that many of you may know already, but could help those of you who dont. I encourage people to post their links too. JOT 2.0 for 40 bucks, are you kidding me?!

[blueflame]

oops forgot the link, Duh! I got cuaght up in the emotion
[link removed -- illegal. Warning PM sent to member.]

[Tek Phreak]

if it was decreed that all palm software was to be free... well then we wouldn't have many of the applications we have today, cause umm.. people live off of making these things why would the put in a ton of hours of a period of a few months to get nothing but the satisfactory of smiling faces they can't see. Yeah, it's a nice though, but it's not reality.

Enjoy.
-Tek

[cbulock]

I will be waiting for you to write some cool software, and then give it to us for free. Oh, is it to hard? Not worth your time?

[GSC3D]

Shoulda been:

"oops forgot the link would be removed, Duh! I got cuaght up in my stupidity."

jeez.

time and place...

this is not the time nor the place. These developers deserve their money. Even if you dont think so.

[yOyOYoo]

Why not make all software free? And hardware too while we're at it! Free memory sticks for all from sony!!

[jedix]

I'm looking for a free house with free furniture and a free car......

[Mr. Thompson]

I suppose you get welfare and food stamps too? Time for you to grow up and quit riding on the backs of others...

[ballistic]

I'm sick of all of this 'free' software (warez, hacks, etc) and file sharing of copyrighted material. Software developers and artists have the right to sell their intellectual property, and the law protects them.

I could go on about the evolution of trade/barter/currency and the exchange of goods and services in free societies (ie capitalism), but I think it would be lost on the original poster. He/she either fell asleep during those classes or skipped school.

If a software developer wishes to contribute their software to the community for free, they also have that right.

Don't Steal.

[n2ifp]

Originally posted by yOyOYoo
Why not make all software free? And hardware too while we're at it! Free memory sticks for all from sony!!

I have spent enough money with $Sony$, so I should get some free memory sticks :D !

[ballistic]

BTW blueflame, here's some free reading for you.

The Way to Wealth by Benjamin Franklin (http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/52-fra.html)

Capitalism (http://www.capitalism.org/faq/competition.htm)

[hansschmucker]

I wouldn't talk all bad about free software, and I think it should be free if
a)The developer wants it to be free (I'm a GNU fan) or
b)The company which created the software doesn't exist anymore or the software is not available anymore (I'm an abandonware fan)

[hansschmucker]

I'm not a fan of systems like LucasArts' were they work against OpenSource projects like ScummVM
I am a fan of companies like id which try to provide the best level of support for all developers, even hobby developers, and who will ignore small copyright violations (like using their textures) if they think it's not too sincere

[ballistic]

I'm not talking bad at all about free software, just about stealing intellectual property.

I agree with you hansschmucker, about abandonware. If a company ceases to exist, they should contribute their software with source code to the community, but they are not obligated to do so.

Consumers have the right to vote with their wallets.

[ClieMarty]

...and i believe that everybody who makes software for palm should be allowed to decide whether or not he wants to charge money. i do of course like freeware and stuff, but hey i'm also willing to pay folks at i.e. zztechs or iambic some $ to get good products and have the security that those products will also be updated on a regular basis.

...on the other hand i also do believe that todays technologies including p2p are good for re-thinking how intellectual property should treated overall. i mean: todays technologies allow you to duplicate and alter text, audio and video easily. now why isn't the industry reflecting that? concrete stuff can only be sold once. digitized content tend to be sold again and again in this or that mixture. and from my point of view the whole economy needs to think about the real value of digital information.

[daveytr]

Freeware is nice, if the people who created it want to make it free. Then again, I don't want someone to be able to pay for a whole semester of college for their kid by of just ME buying something. But I'm all for them making some money off of me.

[daveytr]

ClieMarty - Nice picture of your new Clie NY99X !!!

[jido]

It is interesting to see a thread about free software around here. I believe free software is a really nice thing. However, it is truly a decision of those who develop it, not other people, to decide about making their stuff free.

If people want to get more for free, well, whining and ranting won't get anyone anywhere (altough sometimes it does). The way to go should be to get the ideas rolling, get together and create truly free software. This obviously requires programming skills, software (you can get prc-tools - which are free - from the internet) and imagination. I have yet to find a real palm-os (free) programming community. If there were one I would gladly try to spend some time helping, and I guess it would be the same with lots of people around... and time is usually more valuable than money itself.

Maybe then we could get some (filll app name here) free clones, which in time could be better than the original intent, all due to the openess of it. Then we wouldn't need to have this kind of threads around and everyone would be happy.

[Eric S]

As a person who makes his living programming, I certainly have an opinion or two on this topic :)

First and formost, the one thing a programmer needs to make it writing software on his own is realistic expectations. This comes into play in two ways.

First, there's pricing of programs. We all have our favorite program to point at and ask "How can they ask that much?" Some programs are too simple to ask much money for. I've looked at a few programs an thought that at that price, by the time I buy three copies, I'm better off writing it myself. Other software is complex enough to warrent the price, but I woudn't use it often enough to make the cost worth it. Let's be realistic, I won't pay as much for a text editor on a handheld as I will for one on a PC, because I would use the one on the PC much more. On the other hand, the PC software would have more competition, so even though I would spend more, I might not have to.

So keep in mind that just because it's your life's work and is far more featureful than any PalmOS software out there doesn't mean that anyone else is going to think it's worth $50 to register (an exaggeration, very little software hits that price point).

Most software under $10 is a no-brainer for me. If I want it, I get it. Anything over $20 has to have a major impact on the way I use my PDA, either a large imact once in a while, or a moderate but consistent impact at just about all times. Anything in between I usually have to ponder.

Second, unless you write THE KILLER APP, you're not going to support yourself with one program written for PalmOS. As was pointed out in another thread (or on a mailing list I'm on, I forget where), unless you write something popular enough to make it into the top 50 on PalmGear or the equivelent, you're not going to get more than 5000 downloads a month, and then you're lucky to convert more than 3% of those into registrations (many of them will be people downloading the same thing multiple times, registered users updating, etc). The higher the price, the lower the % of registrations, so I'll base this on $12 registration price, and enough circulation to put you just off the bottom of the top 50 monthly downloads. Now, we're at $1800. Well, there's going to be a bite taken out of that by whoever you sell it through. PayPal takes a small bite, but leaves you to do the actual selling. PalmGear, from what I've heard, takes a bigger bite, about 33%. Assuming you don't want to take the extra effort to set up a web site and support structure yourself, we're now down to $1200 a month. Along comes the IRS, or the local equivelent. By the time they're done with you, you've got a nice suplimentary income, but not enough to live on. Remember, this is assuming that you write something that's popular enough to beat out 99.7% of the downloads out there. Write something less popular, and you're paying for a nice dinner out every month.

A programmer might be tempted to find a way to encourage users to register their software. This is usually done with function-limited or time-expiring demos. The problem then becomes finding the point that maximizes the number of people that register. I've seen demo-ware that expired in as little as 12 hours. I didn't even bother trying it, I just deleted it. On the other hand, McPhling has no limit at all, it relies on the honor system. I registered my copy out of respect for the program, the author, and the system, but I doubt that that's a common thing to do, as the author of the OS5 MemHack-like program had a 0% registration rate with his honorware.

Is it worth what is at times a second fulltime job? It is if you enjoy programming. If not, it depends on how much you need the suplimentary income.

So, how does all this apply to the topic? Just pointing out both sides of the arguement. I can see where program authors feel that they should get paid more for the work they do, but I also can understand why people are reluctant to spend as much money as some of the authors are asking. Writing the software isn't trivial, so authors shouldn't be expected to hand over their work for nothing, but the authors need to be realistic in what they ask for.

[Lizard]

Wow that was the most insightful post I've read on this subject. I just have to say it makes a lot of sense when you explain it that way. What I would really like to know, is what kind of an impact does piracy have on a big company.. say Micro$oft or something.. I'm aware that a lot of companies treat piracy like shoplifting, and it is figured into their prices. I've even heard (yes someone actually said this) that since they factor that into their prices, if people don't steal it's like giving them free money.. I've talked with musicians about mp3s and the like, most of the local bands that I know are in full support of mp3s, and believe that it gets their music out to the public. I'm still not sure where I stand on the whole thing, although I do register my software, in fact just getting ready to register a few more that are going to expire.

On a side note, I am a big fan of the time limited trial. It makes it very easy to see all the features, and then set a timeline for when you have to register programs.

[Narniahopper]

I have a problem with time limited trials, but let me explain. I'll often try some software, discover that I don't like it, and remove it from my Sony. A newer version comes out and I want to test it. It won't work. The older version's time limit has expired and it has effectively made the newer version expire as well.

I could probably get around this problem with some form of uninstall hack, but it's an annoyance that repeatedly pops up.

[Eric S]

Inventory lost due to shoplifting is called shrinkage, it's budgeted for, taken as a tax writeoff, etc. But that doesn't make shoplifting any less illegal. I can't honestly say what the impact of piracy against the big companies are, but given that MicroSoft's NET margins are higher than just about any other company in any other industry, it's hard to feel sorry for them. I still don't think it's right.

As for MP3s, 99% of the MP3s in my collection are burned from CDs that I own. The other 1% are split between MP3s that came with various players, and a handful of songs that I haven't been able to find on CD, or are the classic "one good song on a crappy CD" type, and even those I'm slowly backfilling as I go.

For the record, I honestly believe that when I get around to distributing my software, it will be freeware or donationware as long as I've got a steady income at the level I've got now. I'm not poor, and an extra $100-$200 a month (if that much) would be nice, but the truth of the matter is it would be too much hassle to try to sell my programs for what they'd bring in. Another calculator? Never mind the fact that it'll be incredibly customizable with features not seen on any other calculator, the market for yet another calculator JUST ISN'T THAT BIG. Not to mention the fact that if it's freeware and someone reports a bug while I'm in the middle of obsessing about something that keeps me from fixing the bug right away, I wouldn't feel so bad about not fixing the bug right away. If I took money from people, I would be honor-bound to do my best realistic effort to fix the bug right away.

Programming: It isn't the life of free money, sex, drugs, and rock and roll that you think it is :)

[feed_sheep]

If you aren't trying a program that is platform-specific, download the free Palm OS5 simulator from palmos.com and try it on that.

[Lizard]

Originally posted by Narniahopper
I have a problem with time limited trials, but let me explain. I'll often try some software, discover that I don't like it, and remove it from my Sony. A newer version comes out and I want to test it. It won't work. The older version's time limit has expired and it has effectively made the newer version expire as well.

I could probably get around this problem with some form of uninstall hack, but it's an annoyance that repeatedly pops up.

correct, I use uninstall manager, and cleansweep. Just to be sure that none of the programs I run leave anything behind. It's amazing what you can find..

[Eric S]

Originally posted by Narniahopper
I have a problem with time limited trials, but let me explain. I'll often try some software, discover that I don't like it, and remove it from my Sony. A newer version comes out and I want to test it. It won't work. The older version's time limit has expired and it has effectively made the newer version expire as well.

I could probably get around this problem with some form of uninstall hack, but it's an annoyance that repeatedly pops up.

Sometimes, but not always, the software is written in such a way that when you change versions, it resets the trial counter. I really like this, and wish it happened more often. Unfortunately, in the case of software with a long evaluation time that is updated frequently, it means that people could get away with never registering, so it's less likely to happen precisely where we most want it to happen.

Major-version resets don't always help. The various minor-release versions of DateBk5 haven't reset the trial counter, so I'm stuck in semi-demo land, which wouldn't be a major problem, except that I originally loaded DateBk5 on my NX to learn enough about it to show my wife, who wanted a better datebook. Just over 45 days later, I wanted to evaluate it again for my own purposes, but I'm in that area where the functionality I want is shut down.

I'm not complaining about DateBk5. 45 day eval periods are rare, especially when combined with the fact that the program is still fully functional for the first half of every month. I just got tripped up by bad timing.

Then again, with the amount of software that I've installed/uninstalled, it's probably a good idea to dump everything and reinstall all the software about now anyway. That will clear out any lurking evaluation periods. I keep records of all my registration keys, so it's a 30 minute process, realistically. I could probably cut that down to 15 minutes if I keep better track of what software I load and from where.

[jido]

Originally posted by Eric S

For the record, I honestly believe that when I get around to distributing my software, it will be freeware or donationware as long as I've got a steady income at the level I've got now. I'm not poor, and an extra $100-$200 a month (if that much) would be nice, but the truth of the matter is it would be too much hassle to try to sell my programs for what they'd bring in. Another calculator? Never mind the fact that it'll be incredibly customizable with features not seen on any other calculator, the market for yet another calculator JUST ISN'T THAT BIG. Not to mention the fact that if it's freeware and someone reports a bug while I'm in the middle of obsessing about something that keeps me from fixing the bug right away, I wouldn't feel so bad about not fixing the bug right away. If I took money from people, I would be honor-bound to do my best realistic effort to fix the bug right away.


Well, what about an open source / free software approach here? Problem is, maybe I can program (which I can, I do that for a living), but haven't had time to create something nor learn how to particularly program for the Palm. However, perhaps making a small change or fixing a small bug, that I could do. But that wouldn't be possible without at least an open source (which doesn't imply giving away the rights to your code) model, or even better a GPL type license. A centralized, owner controlled 'official' version is very common with a lot of os/free software.

You can't expect people that haven't been on the whole development to become experts on your code, or at least not right away, but having peer reviewing is always a good practice, and having more people working on something means faster turnaround times for fixes and added features. And even then not a lot of people would jump into the code, most are simple users, not techies/coders, but still having product feedback from every kind of user is still a must.

I know the don't-charge-for-your-work model doesn't work for everyone, but donations could be accepted, you can still sell the product, people who can spare time and resources can freely contribute and you can still learn a lot from the process and from other people.

[nevarDeath]

This is one reason I love my zaurus, there's very few apps that are commercial, nearly all are GPL or freeware, if you don't want to pay for palm software, don't steal from developers, just get a Zaurus........

[Eric S]

Sorry, should have been more explicit, I included both GPL and BSD licensing (and the likes) in the freeware/donationware categories, as they can be either, or even shareware (Yes, you can have GPL shareware, but it isn't the norm).

While I have no problems contributing to opensource projects, I'm a little nervous about providing my projects as open source because my coding style is "unique." No, let's call it "abnormal." I have an ability to look at the way code is being designed and forsee subtle problems and provide solutions to these problems. I'm not as good at making these solutions easy to use if you don't understand the problem that it was meant to avoid. OO programming is helping, but it still doesn't replace micromanagement, and I'd really rather not micromanage anyway. Just yesterday, I had a programmer bring a problem to me, and the first thought that went through my mind was "that's why a year ago when you started on that project I recommended that you not to do it that way, state machines are your friend." Fortunately, with a real-world example, he got at least part of the idea. Now he's using a kludge of a combination between his method and mine, but at least he's started on the right trail. Yes, I could have crammed it down his throat in the first place with formal design docs, but we're a small, informal shop that has to remain flexible. If they don't understand the reason for why I would force something on them, then I have to have a good reason for doing it. BTW, if anyone has heard the saying about managing programmers being like trying to herd cats, I can tell you it's a fact :)

So what does that have to do with anything? If I'm in charge of a software project available by CVS or similar means, I'd spend so much time trying to make other people's code fit into my "design document" that I wouldn't have any time to code myself.

Though I have to ask myself what the world is coming to when a surprising number of programmers don't know how to write a reasonably efficient sort without just calling a library function or aren't familiar with such basic concepts as the order of a function (estimate of how well an algorithm scales) or state machines. I KNOW that these are still taught in college, so they must just figure that they'll never need these skills in the real world and forget about them as soon as they pass a test.

[Eric S]

Originally posted by nevarDeath
This is one reason I love my zaurus, there's very few apps that are commercial, nearly all are GPL or freeware, if you don't want to pay for palm software, don't steal from developers, just get a Zaurus........

I like the idea of a Zaurus, but by the time it came around, I was pretty firmly entrenched in PalmOS. If/when I get my credit cards mostly paid off, I might pick up a Zaurus and a PocketPC, just to keep myself up to date.

The biggest problem with the Zaurus I have is that every time I look at it, I don't think PDA, I start thinking about all the neat projects I could do using a Zaurus as an embeded controller :)

[bhroam]

I used to not like the idea of shareware... comming from the linux community to the palm, the idea of shareware bothered me. I thought comercial software had it's place and freeware had its place... nothing in between. I then bought some of this shareware and realized it's place. Paying comercial software prices, you expect great customer support and bugfree software.... and you generally don't get major upgrades. Freeware is great but you get what you pay for.... shareware fits between. You pay a little, get better software... decent tech support and generally a lifetime of free upgrades. Actually come to think of it... most likily better tech support... I can't tell you how many times I've called up some comercial company which my company has paid big bucks for a support contract, just to have them read me the manual I just finished reading. I've found some great shareware products which I paid for years back and still use... great stuff.

Don't get me wrong, every time I look through palmgear, I get discusted at the **** software people try and sell... I don't *****... I just don't buy it.

[xMRG]

Thought this would fit in this thread. I think I would need some time to consider this purchase.

Check out the price on this software:

Palmfieldoffice 1.0.4 for $950.00

http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?sid=62269020021230190416&prodID=46874

Has anyone seen a higher price on Palm software?

[MikeLang]

What does it do? Spit out unlimited free lunch and dinner whenever we run it? :-)

[dwest]

What about the notion of subscription software?
A programmer writes a software package, say a full featured database package for the palm that syncs with Access. Ala HanDBase.

Rather than sell it once, he sells it on a quarterly subscription.

The user downloads the trial, uses it for 15 days and determines that it suits his fancy.

He can then subscribe to another key for 90 days for say $12 and use the software.

Next quarter, maybe he is not using the software anymore so he passes.

Following quarter he gets a new idea for using the software and subscribes again for $12 and 90 more days.

After the third subscription, the software is paid for and he gets full rights to use the software with no more subscriptions.

Major upgrades start over and are treated the same.

Bug fixes are posted as usual along the way.

Just thinking out loud.

Any thoughts or improvements on the idea?

[stevek]

here is my site for the fellow that posted the free software. download till your heart is content.
http://digilander.libero.it/caricacell/

[rob_squared]

lol

[blueflame]

lol, thats funny

[mdharris]

That was to funny

[Alistar]

Well I would like to say that I dabble in a little programming here and there and it is not easy to make these programs so that they will run well and with as few bugs as possible. The developers have every right to charge some money for their hard work. However I would also like to see some limits here. I have worked as a network administrator and I don't keep getting paid because the network is still up and running. I say if they are no longer making updates or changes to the software they should not charge us for it.

[cbulock]

Originally posted by Alistar
Well I would like to say that I dabble in a little programming here and there and it is not easy to make these programs so that they will run well and with as few bugs as possible. The developers have every right to charge some money for their hard work. However I would also like to see some limits here. I have worked as a network administrator and I don't keep getting paid because the network is still up and running. I say if they are no longer making updates or changes to the software they should not charge us for it.

The one problem I see with this idea is, when administering the network, you are getting paid. Software developers aren't paid during the time they produce the software. Only afterwords.

[Alistar]

That is a good point. I never thought of that.