SJ33 sales to plummet! Zire 71 already on sale at Target and Staples!

[Shogmaster]

SJ33 no longer a good value at it's current price. Sony'd better lower the price immediately.

For the same $300 retail, the Zire 71 is OS 5.2.1 instead of OS 4.1, and has a faster and more capable arm processor instead of the moldy oldy DB EZ. Also has a VGA camera built in as well, and has a streo headphone jack.

Come on Sony! The ball's in your court. Let's see a $300 OS 5 Clie!!!!

[TechnoCat]

On the other hand, the SJ33 regularly sells (internet) for $250; check out pricegrabber.com. And the processor is not "moldy"; check out the benchmarks I did at http://www.kittycentral.net/palms.html. Plus the SJ33 has a nice integrated flip-cover. No camera, but I would guess most users don't give a rip about the camera. My wife and I are vacillating between the SJ33 and the Zire 71 and probably going to get her an SJ33 because she likes it more. (We'll decide in a few days. Either way, I'll probably get a TG50.)

[oklang]

I've just got an SJ22 and I'm not happy. I spend $69 for a sandisk 128 MS and copying file is slow. As slow as snail!

I hope CC will carry them so I can exchange my clie.


Two questions;

1. Is the new Z71 have a Hi res?
2. Does it have CF or xD?

[TechnoCat]

The Zire 71 has Hi-Rez, 320x320, and SD. Not MS. (Which IMHO is a "good thing"®, as MS cost too much and are too limited.)

But you did choose the slowest brand of MemoryStick on the market; you might try exchanging for a different brand.

[Shogmaster]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
The Zire 71 has Hi-Rez, 320x320, and SD. Not MS. (Which IMHO is a "good thing"®, as MS cost too much and are too limited.)

But you did choose the slowest brand of MemoryStick on the market; you might try exchanging for a different brand.

No no no. The brand isn't the problem. It's the SJ series (all except the SJ33). They are notorious for SSSLLLLLOOOOOWWWWW memory stick IO speed. There are literally dozens of threads on this very topic here.

[Shogmaster]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
On the other hand, the SJ33 regularly sells (internet) for $250; check out pricegrabber.com.

Logic dictates that the Z 71 will fall under similar web discounts, so your point is moot there. These web sellers are basically selling the devices about 10% over their cost and hoping to make up the lost revenue with either inflated shipping charge, or accessory sales.

And the processor is not "moldy"; check out the benchmarks I did at http://www.kittycentral.net/palms.html. Plus the SJ33 has a nice integrated flip-cover. No camera, but I would guess most users don't give a rip about the camera. My wife and I are vacillating between the SJ33 and the Zire 71 and probably going to get her an SJ33 because she likes it more. (We'll decide in a few days. Either way, I'll probably get a TG50.)

Artificial benchmarks aside, programs written for ARM devices like AcidImage shows HUGE increase in performance over even the 66Mhz DB EZ.

[Foo Fighter]

The Zire 71 is going to crush SJ33 sales unless Sony either releases a more competitve model, or drops the price another $50.

[TechnoCat]

Originally posted by Shogmaster
Artificial benchmarks aside, programs written for ARM devices like AcidImage shows HUGE increase in performance over even the 66Mhz DB EZ.
Apparently you didn't even check out the benchmarks. You might try actually following the link before issuing a knee-jerk reaction, as doing so would have precluded you making two simultaneous mistakes:

First, the benchmarks do show that armlets are disproportionately fast. I tested in both modes. So I did not only prepare but display data supporting that statement; I just don't consider it terribly relevant given the tiny percentage of OS5-optimized applications (which is far more relevant.)

Second, you would have seen a very wide swatch of benchmarks, certainly enough to counter your whine of "artificial"ness. By that type of shallow reasoning, any speed or benchmark judgements are inadmissable because, by definition, all are artificial. Frame rates in Kinoma are artificial because it relies on one program, one clip, one compression ratio, one resolution. Memory writes are artificial because nobody merely writes to memory. Processing tests, similar.

Your comment that ARM-optimized apps are much faster is true. So prove it's relevant. What percentage of apps today are ARM-optimized?

[Shogmaster]

What the hell are we arguing here? We are agreeing that the armlet proggies are faster, right?

Sure there aren't many of them, but when these things are marketed as multimedia devices, most of those that serve the "multi-media" purposes are really benefitting from the fact that they are ARM devices.

Simply:

Photos - AcidImage or Splashphoto. Rest are pretty ho hum as pic viewing proggies. And both of these are optimized for ARM. Going from my 66Mhz DB equipped NR70V to my XScale equipped NX70V was simply night and day with the same program (Acid Image).

Movies - ARM = MPEG4, DB EZ = Kinoma. After experiencing both in several devices, they can keep Kinoma, thankyouverymuch.


As far as artificial vs not for benchmarks, if you want to get wrapped up in pedantics, fine, but for me, benches based on programs that we actually use is far more useful for us consumers.

As an example, I can cut through the most BS arguments on PC vs Macs by stating that Photoshop is faster on a PC than a Mac of equivilent cost. Us consumers really only care about the bang for our buck ratio than any other esoteric technical merits or arguments. Arguing whether ALTIVEC is more efficient SIMD instructions than SSE and SSE2 is irrelevent (although as I understand it, ALTIVEC is more efficient than SSE and SSE2) when at the end of the day, the fact that $1000 P4 equipped PC outperforms a $2000 G4 tower in Photoshop makes the whole argument moot for those who are actually making the purchases.

Obcourse above example only matters if you use Photoshop. ;)

[TechnoCat]

The question might be, is the Zire 71 marketed as a multimedia device? And how important that function is, of course.

Your argument of real apps versus benchmarks is seriously flawed simply because nobody else uses the same mix you do, and perhaps nobody else uses the same aspects of PhotoShop. (Example - which should should you benchmark in PhotoShop: Running a usharp filter, saving a large JPEG, or displaying a histogram? These are all very different processes.) Instead, benchmarks allow you to accurately extrapolate performance, while allowing someone else with different applications to also do so.

What ratio purchasers of a Zire 71 or SJ33 are playing video or editing photos on them, using apps that (for the Z71) are OS5-optimized?

That's the topic. Not that the Z71 isn't faster at OS5-optimized niche-applications, but whether that's really a typical factor and whether that renders benchmarks moot.

[Shogmaster]

Originally posted by TechnoCat
The question might be, is the Zire 71 marketed as a multimedia device? And how important that function is, of course.

Well Gee..... Its got a camera and a stereo headphone jack.... Hmmmm..... let me think.........


Your argument of real apps versus benchmarks is seriously flawed simply because nobody else uses the same mix you do,

Smart folks buy things based on their needs, and smart folks would only care about benchmarks on apps that they actually use. Everything else just might as well be esoteric gobbly-gook.

and perhaps nobody else uses the same aspects of PhotoShop. (Example - which should should you benchmark in PhotoShop: Running a usharp filter, saving a large JPEG, or displaying a histogram? These are all very different processes.) Instead, benchmarks allow you to accurately extrapolate performance, while allowing someone else with different applications to also do so.

This is why smart folks would look at overall performance of the app being benchmarked OR look at the part of the benchmark that would matter to them, if they know specificaly what they are.

What ratio purchasers of a Zire 71 or SJ33 are playing video or editing photos on them, using apps that (for the Z71) are OS5-optimized?

One would imagine that the reason they are spending $300 instead of $200 or less is because the cheaper Palm OS devices did not have the feature they were wanting. If someone only does the usual PDA only functions, then why would they be getting Zire 71 or SJ33 in the first place? They could save themselves heaps of money by getting SJ22 if they wanted a good color PDA, or the original ZIre if all they want is a basic B&W PDA.

The very fact that they are stepping up to a Zir 71 is a good indication of what they want out of a device.

That's the topic. Not that the Z71 isn't faster at OS5-optimized niche-applications, but whether that's really a typical factor and whether that renders benchmarks moot.

Trust me on this. As someone that actually sells PDAs at a retailer, I can assure you that people hate spending more money than they need to in general. The first thing they look at is the cheapest stuff on display, then they gradually go up the price range based on the stuff they want the device to do.

[archangel]

For $50 more I bought an NX60. If the mulitmedia on the Zire71 is as bad as the Tungsten T (it uses the same processor) its a device to avoid.

The MP3 quality on the Tungsten T is worse than my N710C from a couple of years ago and that was an OS 3.5 device.

[EvilErnie]

Sony is miles ahead of palm, I would get a OS4 sony any day compaired to a OS5 palm. Sony just makes them better.

[Shogmaster]

Originally posted by archangel
For $50 more I bought an NX60. If the mulitmedia on the Zire71 is as bad as the Tungsten T (it uses the same processor) its a device to avoid.

The MP3 quality on the Tungsten T is worse than my N710C from a couple of years ago and that was an OS 3.5 device.

Yeah, $350 for NX60 is a killer deal.

As far as the crappy MP3 playback for the T|T, I'm not so sure it's the CPU. CPU's just decoding the MP3 files and I don't think would contribute much to the sound quality.

I think they just cheaped out on the quality of the headphone jack (sound quality complaint), power output (low volume complaint), and shielding (alot of complaints about a lot of noise coming through the phone jack).

[sigelang]

Because I'm planning to buy the DSC-P8
(3.2MP) or the $399 All Weather Olmpus.




_____________________
Maybe Palm have awaken!

[TechnoCat]

Yeah, that's an issue for me too. I have a Canon S40, and have designed/written/published open-source image gallery software. What would I want with an integrated lo-rez camera? Not that I would object if there were no compromises built in, but I'd rather save $10, 10 grams or 10mm size than have the built-in camera.

[Shogmaster]

From pictures submitted at PIC forums, the Z71's camera is crappy even by VGA CMOS camera standards. Even though my NX70V has same type of camera with same resolutions, the pictures shot with it look better IMO.

I personally wouldn't consider buying the Z71 based on the merits of the camera, but instead as the lowest cost OS5 Palm.

It will be inetersting to see how the consumers react at the store where I work. For $200, you can get the SJ22 with excellent color screen. For $100 more, you can either get the SJ33 with added good quality MP3 support added and good IO speed for the memory stick, or get the Z71 with OS5, ARM proc, a ho-hum camera, and unknown quality MP3 playback, and much better IO/flash memory with the SD card slot.

If the MP3 playback on the Z71 turns out to be pretty decent, I'm definitely going to start recommending the Z71 over the SJ33. You just get so much more for the same money. The lame camera can be just considered a freebee.

[fjl307]

Why don't Dony drop the TG50 price? How about that? Around 340$ maybe, I'm sure people would be willing to pay a little more for a metel body, bluetooth and a 200 megahertz processer.

[EvilErnie]

Originally posted by fjl307
Why don't Dony drop the TG50 price? How about that? Around 340$ maybe, I'm sure people would be willing to pay a little more for a metel body, bluetooth and a 200 megahertz processer.
No way Sony is going to drop the price for a product which is about 1 month old. The price of theNX just droped after being in the market for around 9 months. Thats "Sony Style" for you! :D

[Seul]

I've been planning on upgrading from my Handspring Visor Deluxe since February. I'll probably make my choice in the next 2 weeks.

About the Z71... I've been following the rumors/reports of the Z71 ever since they first came out, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with the specs. However, I'm still probably going to buy an SJ33. The form factor for the SJ33 is perfect for me. I need my PDA to be short... long and thin won't work for me.

In any case, I don't think SJ33 sales will drop that much. And if sales do drop significantly, maybe Sony might lower the price a little, or offer a rebate. Somehow, I doubt either will happen. Sony doesn't seem to adjust their pricing based on the competition.

[Gazpacho]

From pictures submitted at PIC forums, the Z71's camera is crappy even by VGA CMOS camera standards.

Actually, new pictures have been posted on Brighthand and PIC, and they are actually quite good. Indoors as well as outdoors. The guy who took them explained that most users (including himself) first didn't bother to let the Zire adjust its white balance and other options automatically, hence the blue-ish photos on most pics.

He posted some other pics taken outside, and the colours are actually quite good! I must say that I'm impressed, because the Zire 71 is a really tough competitor against the current Sony models.