Digital rights media issue

[Billy.bags]

I did my search and came up with the following writtin in 2003 by Atomic Chicken

Has Sony written any software drivers that will allow me to use my music, all saved using atrac3 onto my pc, with audio playewr on my th55?

"However, there IS a catch here. MagicGate sticks are Sony's answer to hardware based DRM (Digital Rights Management) music content control (Read: "you can't copy songs YOU own because YOU bought our product, you pitiful moron" into this). The catch? Sony, in it's infinite wisdom, never quite got around to it and "forgot" to write the software to allow this mechanism to work for memory stick "Pro" sticks. This means that even though every memory stick "Pro" sold has "Magic Gate" clearly stamped on the packaging and the stick itself, it is worthless for ATRAC3 and other DRM schemes that use MagicGate encryption - at least until Sony gets around to writing the software drivers (if they ever do). Pretty smart, eh? Well... whatever"

[golalmo]

as mention in your quote, drm is not implement in the new memory sticks, even though they carry the magicgate logo on them. only the old white ones from sony will carry drm with sdmi which allow you to use protected atrac3 on clie.

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00005K2EU.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[kiteandcamera]

Yea, DRM is a real problem. While it prevents, to csome degree, the criminal element from easily pirating software, it prevents regular folks from using the music they paid for on their personal devices. I learned about DRM after I had downloaded an album from walmart.com. It would only play on Windows Media Player, but not on my digital audio player. Then I ran across an app called Tunebite written by a German programmer. Essentially, it records the output of your PC sound card while music is playing. What this means is you can play your DRM music and have the output recorded in a format that is useful to you. Apparently, this is a legal way around DRM because the software does not defeat the DRM encrypted file, which would be illegal. Google tunebite and give it a trial run. You could search the Net for other osftware that can convert your DRM files, but, for me, Tunebite is uncomplicated.

[golalmo]

though this proccess bypass drm protection, you pay in lossing quality.
converting digital to analog and again to digital + compressing the file again is a big -

[DanT]

I stayed away from that ATRAC3 BS since the beginning. I've been using the RealJukeBox that came with N760C installation CD-ROM to convert my standard CD musics to MP3s since back in my N760C days (2002). My ears can't tell the difference in the sound quality even at 92kbps. I can fit 3 hours musics into a 128MB MS.

Those MP3s work just find in my TH55, which now has 1GB MS with 12-hour MP3s occupying about just over half of the memory card.

[dragonsgames]

Yeah, I have always used .MP3. Sony Clie can make the song sound very good, even at 128 KBPS, I played the same song, on an iPod, Zen Micro, and VZ90, and the VZ90 won.

[shieldvideo]

Yeah, I have always used .MP3. Sony Clie can make the song sound very good, even at 128 KBPS, I played the same song, on an iPod, Zen Micro, and VZ90, and the VZ90 won.
Simple MP3 maker is free and can do the same thing. You can play any audio through the sound card and record to any quality wav or mp3.
It's small and simple [sic] to install. you can also convert mp3 <> wav.

[CliePet]

You should search, things have changed since 2003.

There are two kinds of DRM / ATRAC3 on memory sticks.
The old/original which only works on the old pure-white memory sticks (non-pro 128MB max), and a newer approach that works with newer MS Pro sticks

The CLIE only supports the old/original format. The PSP supports both.
The new one was released after the CLIE was discontinued and they are typing to sell PSPs.

General advice: stick to MP3. Encode at a higher bit rate.

[Billy.bags]

Thanks to all for your input.
Am surprised that Sony got away with it

[hpmoon]

I stayed away from that ATRAC3 BS since the beginning. I've been using the RealJukeBox that came with N760C installation CD-ROM to convert my standard CD musics to MP3s since back in my N760C days (2002). My ears can't tell the difference in the sound quality even at 92kbps. I can fit 3 hours musics into a 128MB MS.
It's that attitude, however, that has killed Sony's superior technology in ATRAC compression. Consumers love to seize control of their equipment and announce that things are "about" the same when in fact there are dramatic differences. ATRAC3 (played on a TH55 from a MagicGate Memory Stick up to 128MB large) can be almost twice as small as an MP3 at the same bitrate, while also having much better sound fidelity.

When you want the best in technology regardless of what's trendy (e.g., the iPod), you go with ATRAC3plus compression. It's not even a debatable proposition. The unfortunate result is that the debate never meaningfully happened. Hence, you have Sony doing an "aw shucks" on its incredible invention of ATRAC compression.

[DanT]

...ATRAC3 (played on a TH55 from a MagicGate Memory Stick up to 128MB large) can be almost twice as small as an MP3 at the same bitrate, while also having much better sound fidelity.
...

Tell me how long of musics can you play with ATRAC3 that fit into a 128MB MS with "superior sound quality", 6 hours? I tried ATRAC3 and it sucks! It is probably becoming like that Betamax crap.

[hpmoon]

Tell me how long of musics can you play with ATRAC3 that fit into a 128MB MS with "superior sound quality", 6 hours? I tried ATRAC3 and it sucks! It is probably becoming like that Betamax crap.
"How long of musics?" Dude, go back to school.

Adding to all of this, there's the fact that ATRAC3 is the only way to go when you want to use the built-in TH55 media player (power conservation, etc.) and want to organize your collection into discrete albums. MP3s result in one huge long playlist, or using CliePet's compromise of exiting the program, switching albums/playlists, then re-loading the program -- and crashing every so often.

[olderTechnology]

Not debating ATRAC's technical prowess, but that last point you made is just because Sony made the audio player incredibly stupid when using MP3's. It's not any inherent advantage of the format. Surely Sony did that on purpose. Most of us are tired of being jerked around by vendors, whether their name is Sony or Apple. MP3 or OGG gives us portability and choice.

[DanT]

"How long of musics?" Dude, go back to school.

Adding to all of this, there's the fact that ATRAC3 is the only way to go when you want to use the built-in TH55 media player (power conservation, etc.) and want to organize your collection into discrete albums. MP3s result in one huge long playlist, or using CliePet's compromise of exiting the program, switching albums/playlists, then re-loading the program -- and crashing every so often.

ATRAC3 is NOT the only way to go to use AudioPlayer. I've used AudioPlayer with MP3 4 years ago, back in my N760C days.

OK, let me clarify my bad English question in regards to "How long of musics?" You said "ATRAC3 (played on a TH55 from a MagicGate Memory Stick up to 128MB large) can be almost twice as small as an MP3 at the same bitrate, while also having much better sound fidelity." Can you back that up with facts. If you fill up a 128MB MS with ATRAC3, at the same bitrate as MP3, how long can you play the ATRAC3 with AudioPlayer. Is that clear enough to you now? So tell me.

[Munan]

"How long of musics?" Dude, go back to school.

You're making a fundamental mistake generally made by many; you assume that every member of this forum speaks English as a primary language.
Newsflash - they don't.. It is possible that Dan is either not a native English speaker or merely had one too many beers before posting. Either way, statements like that are quite unneeded.

And I'm with Dan on this.. Just how long of musics do you get? ;)

[JAmerican]

Wow, I didn't know that the MG technology was never fully implemented in the MS Pro sticks. LMAO. I actually tried to use ATRAC3 but it was so hard to get one song to be ATRAC3 that I decided to just stick with MP3. WOW. Imagine if the MS Pro sticks were MG-encrypted, that would suck. I would have though less of the UX because thats the main reason I dis iPods, DRM (along with easily-scratchable surfaces). I think that DRM is ridiculous. Every company (Apple, Microsoft, and others) who use DRM should just put on the front of their products, "You buy your music, but you don't own it!"

See how many people will buy it.

JAmerican

[salesrep]

I would like to know how long of musics as well. . .

I recently bought a Sony S2 D-NS707F (isn't that the ID #'s from the Star Trek 'Enterprise?') CD/MP3/ATRAC3/FM/AM/TV/WB sports player that advertises 490 songs on 1 CD. I thought that sounded kinda cool (nevermind that I don't own 490 songs. . .) and since I have the th55/e, maybe I'll look into this ATRAC3 stuff.

Well, to make a long story short while encompassing at least 2 threads in the TH-forum, here's what I ran into:

1. THE D*MN SONICSTAGE program locks up my PC every other time I fired it up to play with it, &

2. Once I did get it up and running, it wouldn't let me 'check out' the music (in ATRAC3 format) to my MAGICGATE MS PRO.

I fully believe that Sony can be WAY ahead of the times in some areas, but it shouldn't be this complicated!

[DanT]

You're making a fundamental mistake generally made by many; you assume that every member of this forum speaks English as a primary language.
Newsflash - they don't.. It is possible that Dan is either not a native English speaker or merely had one too many beers before posting. Either way, statements like that are quite unneeded.

And I'm with Dan on this.. Just how long of musics do you get? ;)

Thanks for the support there Munan.

I checked dictionary and yes, not such thing as musics, but it is so logical, but again, this is English. Oh well, you learn from making mistake. The Newcastle was good and smooth, though. ;)

[hpmoon]

1. THE D*MN SONICSTAGE program locks up my PC every other time I fired it up to play with it, &

2. Once I did get it up and running, it wouldn't let me 'check out' the music (in ATRAC3 format) to my MAGICGATE MS PRO.

I fully believe that Sony can be WAY ahead of the times in some areas, but it shouldn't be this complicated!
Big huge stupid Sony inaction is the problem: you'll never be able to transfer ATRAC3 music onto a Memory Stick Pro. Only Memory Sticks with the MagicGate label 128MB or smaller will work. Contrary to what is often posted here, they don't have to be the white ones -- I'm using black Duos that were designed for the PSP that I got for $5 a piece. Each holds over five hours.

[hpmoon]

ATRAC3 is NOT the only way to go to use AudioPlayer. I've used AudioPlayer with MP3 4 years ago, back in my N760C days.
Great, but you get one huge playlist of MP3 files and no ability to play one album discrete from the next within the application. It's a horrible environment for MP3s, and we all agree on that. But it achieves dramatic power consumption and performance advantages. So switch to ATRAC3, OK? Or buy a better digital music player. They're getting really cheap, if that's an issue.
You said "ATRAC3 (played on a TH55 from a MagicGate Memory Stick up to 128MB large) can be almost twice as small as an MP3 at the same bitrate, while also having much better sound fidelity." Can you back that up with facts. If you fill up a 128MB MS with ATRAC3, at the same bitrate as MP3, how long can you play the ATRAC3 with AudioPlayer. Is that clear enough to you now? So tell me.
Read this:

http://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/tech/ITS_test_report.pdf

And this:

http://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/tech/TESTfactory_Listening_test.pdf

[dragonsgames]

What about us Mac users, and those who like to use one MemoryCard with all their data (music/movies/photos)? I have a 2GB, and I am on a Mac, so I guess I can't use it... :p

[DanT]

Great, but you get one huge playlist of MP3 files and no ability to play one album discrete from the next within the application. It's a horrible environment for MP3s, and we all agree on that. But it achieves dramatic power consumption and performance advantages. So switch to ATRAC3, OK? Or buy a better digital music player. They're getting really cheap, if that's an issue.
[QUOTE=DanT]You said "ATRAC3 (played on a TH55 from a MagicGate Memory Stick up to 128MB large) can be almost twice as small as an MP3 at the same bitrate, while also having much better sound fidelity." Can you back that up with facts. If you fill up a 128MB MS with ATRAC3, at the same bitrate as MP3, how long can you play the ATRAC3 with AudioPlayer. Is that clear enough to you now? So tell me.
Read this:

http://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/tech/ITS_test_report.pdf

And this:

http://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/tech/TESTfactory_Listening_test.pdf

Looks like I don't need to go back to school. I can learn it right here. ;)

Thanks for the link. I don't rip MP3 at 64kbps any way. At 128kbps the MP3 is just tiny bit worst than ATRAC3 at either 132 or 64 kbps, not worth the aggravation of checking in/out and getting MagicGate type MS. I only use 1GB MS Pro for everything in my TH55.

Power consumption for listening to MP3 using AudioPlayer is not bad either. I just finished working on the yard for 3 hours, while listening to MP3. The battery is still showing 80%. I didn't remember where was the battery level before listening the MP3. So I am not concern about the battery consumption when I listen to MP3 with the AudioPlayer.

Don't care too much about playlist either, since all the songs that I like are in there anyway. 12 hours worth of music in 500MB space is more than plenty. No extra MS to carry around in my pants pocket.

Convenience is the key factor for me. I want to carry a PDA in my pants pocket, w/o keyboard, w/o flipcover, w/o extra MS, just a PDA.

One day I found one of my 128MB MS in washing machine. So that was the end of carrying MS in my pants' pocket. It, surprisingly, still works after I dry it out, however. Amazing!

[Cyker]

ATRAC is virtually dead; Sony have pretty much deprecated it - The fact that you can only use it on Clies with a white non-Pro MemoryStick is proof enough. The only thing that uses ATRAC that had any success at all was the Minidisc system, and they went and shot themselves in the foot when they made UMDs for the PSP instead of re-using that format, which has virtually guaranteed that even that format will get die off.

Glimmers of hope:
Sharky submitted his Clie MP3 info to the TCPMP guys - If they implement it, we can dump the (frankly crap) OS5 AudioPlayer and use TCPMP; This means we can use m3u playlists!
We could bug the PocketTunes people to add hardware MP3 decoding support to PocketTunes.

The problem with both is that the limitations of the Clie's MP3 decoder will remain - Any MP3s that it processes will still need to be 44.1kHz and nothing else... (Bitrate (CBR only unlike OS4 Clies!) and stereo/mono don't matter, but the frequency HAS to be 44.1kHz!!)

[Billy.bags]

Having started the discussion and learnt a lot, I figured the best way to get the music I had paid for onto my TH55 was to reclaim my CDs,which I bought, from my kids and put them onto my hard disc using WMP then transfer as MP3
It works a treat on my 512mb mem stick - I get 66 mins of dire straits, pink floyd, James taylor which takes me to work and back and I still have 373mb of 468mb available. So I can get a whole lot more of what I own onto the MS.

Yes, there probably is a difference in quality output but it's no big deal for me - I don't really notice it. I am frustrated that I have been misled by SONY especially since I have so much of their equipment but I am a little guy whose wheel doesn't squeak that loud and I haven't the knowledge or will power to fight a huge multinational.
Can I play this music on my sony camera (DSC w7)? There's a challenge
Sorry Off topic forget it

[CliePet]

> Contrary to what is often posted here, they don't have to be the white ones -- I'm using black Duos that were designed for the PSP that I got for $5 a piece. Each holds over five hours.
BTW: that was a place-holder too. The original PSP release only supported the original MagicGate copy protection. 32MB DUO sticks came with most PSP packages (not Pro, works with old style Magic Gate). That's why they are cheap on eBay.
A PSP firmware update added the second style Magic Gate (MSPro sticks)

Additional: in order to install songs, you need a Magic Gate compatible memory stick reader/writer. Non-Sony brand stick readers don't support it. The cheap ($20) Sony stick reader/writer doesn't support it.
HOWEVER if you connect your PSP in USB Mode, it works like a Magic Gate stick reader (for MS DUO sticks).

[Munan]

Thanks for the support there Munan.

I checked dictionary and yes, not such thing as musics, but it is so logical, but again, this is English. Oh well, you learn from making mistake. The Newcastle was good and smooth, though. ;)

A fine choice indeed. Being of Irish decent, I find Guiness Stout to be a little more to my liking, but that Newcastle Ale is some tasty stuff to be sure!

[hpmoon]

> Contrary to what is often posted here, they don't have to be the white ones -- I'm using black Duos that were designed for the PSP that I got for $5 a piece. Each holds over five hours.
BTW: that was a place-holder too. The original PSP release only supported the original MagicGate copy protection. 32MB DUO sticks came with most PSP packages (not Pro, works with old style Magic Gate). That's why they are cheap on eBay.
A PSP firmware update added the second style Magic Gate (MSPro sticks)

Additional: in order to install songs, you need a Magic Gate compatible memory stick reader/writer. Non-Sony brand stick readers don't support it. The cheap ($20) Sony stick reader/writer doesn't support it.
HOWEVER if you connect your PSP in USB Mode, it works like a Magic Gate stick reader (for MS DUO sticks).
Hold on, I'm not sure where that went. I'm ripping ATRAC3 files directly from SonicStage onto my 128mb Memory Stick Duos via the TH55 itself (USB connection). Other than having to wait a few more seconds, there's no need for a special reader.

However, are you asserting that a MagicGate Memory Stick PRO (e.g., >128mb) can be prepared with a special Sony reader/writer (or using a firmware-upgraded PSP as a reader/writer), then inserted into a TH55 for playback of ATRAC3 files? More importantly, have you tried it?

[CliePet]

> ....I'm ripping ATRAC3 files directly from SonicStage onto my 128mb Memory Stick ...
That begs the question why anyone would buy a 128MB MS Duo (with today's prices).
Larger sized MS Pro sticks are cheaper (by byte), and way more convenient. Even if you include an extra size needed for higher data-rate MP3s. ATRAC compression is still technically better, but the age of proprietary compression that is limited to 128MB per volume is long over IMHO.

To repeat MS Pro sticks can only store ATRAC music that can be played on the PSP. They removed the historical 128MB limit for the PSP because they are selling PSPs today (not CLIEs)

[intellidryad]

Here's more info.

The problem is with the software on Clies and that damn Sonicstage. MS pros use a slightly different kind of MG DRM, which the Clie audioplayer couldn't decode, and Sonicstage once couldn't encode. Then, Sony came out with Sonicstage 3.4, which encodes the "MS pro version" of magicgate, and only does so if you have an updated PSP (firmware 2.0 and up) connected. And then they released PSP update 2.0.

This is pretty stupid. MS pro sticks were released together with the NZ90, but full support didn't show up untill years later, on the PSP. Fine, MP3 is good enough.

As for the normal MS-MG sticks under 128, I tried them once. I encoded in ATRAC3 105mbps (sorry, ATRAC3pro isn't supported by the Clie player either. I guess that means good bye to Connect music store :) ) Any thing under 105mbps is horrible. Also, I can't get the "album" function to work with ATRAC3 either, still one long stinking playlist. As for song size, I don't remember the exact numbers, but with that 128 stick, I got about 3/2 the amount of songs of that on my MS pro 256, which was full of MP3s in 128mbps. Using ATRAC3 with Sonicstage has the cool factor, but not as convenent as draging MP3s from iTunes to your MS's exploror/finder window.

Here's how I deal with that long playlist. Audioplayer actually does use a M3U playlist, but yeah, "A single M3U", not "M3Us". The "program play" function uses an M3U playlist. But some how, Audioplayer only accepts self-generated playlists. Anyway, I use Audioplayer's "edit playlist" function, drag all songs around so that songs of the same artist are put together, in their original album order, and always use program play mode.

Audioplayer seems to randomly messes around with the song order in "normal mode", everytime you add songs to your stick. To fix this, the only way I know of, is as follows:
1. Format your MS (after a backup)
2. Arrange the songs in the order you want in an iTunes playlist
3. Select all songs in the playlist, and drag them from iTunes into your memorystick.
(That way, the first songs in your iTunes playlist would be transfered first. The first songs to be written on your stick appear first in Audioplayer's default list)
4. Use "edit playlist" in Audioplayer to save it as an M3U. (incase it's messed up the next time you add songs)

[Billy.bags]

> ....I'm ripping ATRAC3 files directly from SonicStage onto my 128mb Memory Stick ...
That begs the question why anyone would buy a 128MB MS Duo (with today's prices).
Larger sized MS Pro sticks are cheaper (by byte), and way more convenient. Even if you include an extra size needed for higher data-rate MP3s. ATRAC compression is still technically better, but the age of proprietary compression that is limited to 128MB per volume is long over IMHO.

To repeat MS Pro sticks can only store ATRAC music that can be played on the PSP. They removed the historical 128MB limit for the PSP because they are selling PSPs today (not CLIEs)

If I understand this correctly, I can rip my ATRAC files onto my MS 512mb mem pro but I won't be able to play the tunes on my clie audio player (even though I can see the files on the mem stick) but I can play them on the PSP

Bill

[hpmoon]

If I understand this correctly, I can rip my ATRAC files onto my MS 512mb mem pro but I won't be able to play the tunes on my clie audio player (even though I can see the files on the mem stick) but I can play them on the PSP

Bill
This is a really good question, because there's been a lot of talk but at every turn, no actual comitment to saying, "I actually tried it."

After over a year of haggling about this, where I think all this speculation has evolved is into CliePet's assertion that you actually can "burn" ATRAC3 files onto a Memory Stick Pro with MagicGate using EITHER a Sony-branded Memory Stick reader/writer (model number never yet provided, but clarified that it's the more expensive one -- there's only one on the market currently, though) OR a firmware-upgraded PSP. I note that somewhere else in these forums, there was much argument about how even that would be totally impossible.

What I'd like to hear is, "I transferred ATRAC3 files onto a 1gb Memory Stick Pro, then put the media into my TH55 and AudioPlayer couldn't play them." Until that time, this whole thread isn't going anywhere but into speculation-land.

[CliePet]

> Also, I can't get the "album" function to work with ATRAC3 either
BTW: the new PSP support is much better (the PSP will display album art)

> Audioplayer seems to randomly messes around with the song order in "normal mode",
Try AlbumSwap to help manage songs/albums
http://www.aibohack.com/clie/albumswap.htm
If you put the track number at the start of the file, it will always sort properly.

> To fix this, the only way I know of, is as follows:
> 1. Format your MS (after a backup)...
BTW: Formatting the MS is overkill. The default playlist is the order of the files on the stick. You can instead delete the offending folder, and recreate it. Then follow the other steps (ie. if you copy files to an empty directory/folder, they get added in order -- if there is stuff in the folder, or was stuff in the folder before -- the order is not reliable)

-----
> If I understand this correctly, I can rip my ATRAC files onto my MS 512mb mem pro but I won't be able to play the tunes on my clie audio player (even though I can see the files on the mem stick) but I can play them on the PSP
Correct (I actually tried it -- and it does work). As mentioned, you need the newer version of SonicStage, a PSP Firmware update (2.x). Also you need a "Magic Gate" compatible stick reader (the PSP in USB Mode works for that)

> What I'd like to hear is, "I transferred ATRAC3 files onto a 1gb Memory Stick Pro, then put the media into my TH55 and AudioPlayer couldn't play them."
Been there, tried it (different sized Pro sticks, duo/regular, Atrac3/Atrac3Plus), doesn't work.

[Billy.bags]

This is a really good question, because there's been a lot of talk but at every turn, no actual comitment to saying, "I actually tried it."

After over a year of haggling about this, where I think all this speculation has evolved is into CliePet's assertion that you actually can "burn" ATRAC3 files onto a Memory Stick Pro with MagicGate using EITHER a Sony-branded Memory Stick reader/writer (model number never yet provided, but clarified that it's the more expensive one -- there's only one on the market currently, though) OR a firmware-upgraded PSP. I note that somewhere else in these forums, there was much argument about how even that would be totally impossible.

What I'd like to hear is, "I transferred ATRAC3 files onto a 1gb Memory Stick Pro, then put the media into my TH55 and AudioPlayer couldn't play them." Until that time, this whole thread isn't going anywhere but into speculation-land.

O.K I bought a 512mb memory stick pro from http://www.digiprintuk.com
along with the adaptor so it could fit into the TH55.
I then ripped two ATRAC tracks from my desktop using data export, and Transfer from audio player on my TH55. The transfer took place because I can see the 2 tracks on the memstick using Clie Files Palm/Programs/MSAUDIO. Audio player says No Music Tracks.
Shame "Grapevine" by Creedence Clearwater Revival is such a great version.
Bill