Ara-Que Assault, not again!

[MonkeyK]

New game capitalizing on the war.

Ara-Que

hmmm...

"The planet was controlled by military regime of its leader, Quaddam"

hmmmm...

Destroy everything that moves, flies, stands, or just looks like dangerous…
...And don’t forget to load your tanks with minerals from Ara-Que small satellite, Ara-Quoil

ouch!

It's really too bad because the screenshots look nice. M-site could have gone for a different storyline with the same game and had a real hit.

[BenT]

Actually....load the game and see how it looks compared to the screenshots. Nothing like it lol. Game really does not look very good. :(

[NeilShapiro]

Anyone stupid and insensitive enough to write that description is by definition too stupid to program good graphics.

[hansschmucker]

Whoever lives in the Mannheim-Heidelberg-Ludwigshafen triangle in Germany. Have a look at your local newspaper. There's an incredibly interesting article about how toy companies make a fortune out of the war. I'll try to post a translation lateron today

[hansschmucker]

Rats. They don't have the entire article online, so I'll guess it's gona take a bit longer.
Anyway, here's the (very brief) introduction:

Already, American toy companies are looking forward to the success of their new products!

For children and collectors: The production of miniature-models and miniature-equipment from the war against Iraq will be a blast (Bombengeschäft), that's almost a certainty by now

At the second day of the war, at the institute for military science of the US forces, there was a strange phone call.

Hasbro, a toy company, asked for a detailled product description of the new protective gear for US soldiers during chemical warfare.

That's got nothing to do with industrial espionage or whatever. Actually it's pretty good teamplay (Doppelpassspiel) between the US-Army and America's biggest toy producer.

Hasbro wants to make big bucks this christmas with their new action-figure 'G.I. Joe .... to be continued

All typos (c) Hansschmucker
Bad grammar (c) Hansschmucker
Content (c) Mannheimer Morgen
( http://www.morgenweb.de/hintergrund/index.html )

[tsuribito]

No suprise . That has always been the case.
Toy Companies lived from war since WW2

[rhart00]

Originally posted by BenT
Actually....load the game and see how it looks compared to the screenshots. Nothing like it lol. Game really does not look very good. :(

thats an understatement!

[Pen-Pen]

And, they stole pictures, the one when you see the front of the plane was taken from an anime : Macross +

Here the proof of what I say :

http://www.5636.net/pen-pen/macrossp04-2.jpghttp://www.5636.net/pen-pen/aqa_splash.jpg

[mikra]

I agree to the above!
The story and the names may be problematic. Who feels offended by that should not play the game. But i agree it is really stupid.
What in my opiono is really bad, are the promises of "best graphics ever" with faked screenshots that promise hi-color graphics. Reality is poor. bar graphics in 256 color mode that are not worth any hype...
So in my opinion:
Please, don´t pay any cent for that piece of s... (software i wanted to say).
michael

[BenT]

On one hand I HATE that companies and toy manufactures would already be thinking about making profit from the war. When men and women are risking their lives, fighting and dying for the freedom of a brutal nation, and the security of the United States.

On the other hand, with our economey as bad as its been....anything would help.

And if their intention is to make money while at the same time, honoring the brave people who risk their lives for our freedom....then its not so bad.

As for this game, WOW it looks like they took that image you posted! Nice job on finding that!

[hansschmucker]

That piece of crap has nothing to do with honouring brave people.
I'm against this war: And I will ALWAYS think of it as Bush's attempt to distract from internal problems, poor economy (Hitler has already tried that and it REALLY distracts people, but doesn't really solve the problems), unconstitutional behavour (He has removed the bill of rights, and you don't even notice) and strengthen his political position (unity IMHO means respecting each other, which includes productive criticism, not telling everybody who thinks different about certain aspects that he was a traitor), not helping people anywhere (look at the mess we now have in Iraq, thank you very much Mr Bush).

Well, as usual when talking about this, I'm drifting away from the original topic, so once more:
If they really wanted to support these brave people, they would use this software as a fundraiser for those families, which were left behind, and I mean on BOTH sides!

[Tixx]

If someone actually thinks that this exploitation of war is to honor soldiers then I think reality has yet to come before them or they avoid reality with fear. I could see if all profits did go to those that fought, to help rebuild the country, to the children of Iraq that lost parents or guardians. Nope, not what is happening here though. So welcome to the real world:)

But profit from war is ok if our administration neglects its primary responsibility (the people of the US). Makes sense <thick with sarcasm>

[hansschmucker]

I know this is a really dumb joke but hey, it holds some truth:

Fighting for peace is like ****ing for Virginity

[Tixx]

True and sad.

[filegrabber]

What about this one (War Hero)- http://www.handango.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=1&jid=EDB8CFAB81FA51D3AX796CCBF59D7EX1&productId=65558&optionId=1_1_2&productType=2&catalog=1&txtSearch=war+hero&sectionId=0&platformId=1

Funny how PalmGear and Handango removed a free application called 'Stop The War' which just had a few images in it but are happy to post these types of games.

This should not turn into an argument about the war etc. but I think PalmGear and Handango are employing double standards (not to mention removing freedom of speech)- I guess they find it easier to remove programs which don't make them any money:)

[hansschmucker]

It's just sad how some people don't know how to value democracy.

Freedom of speech ... tough one ... I just saw something yesterday on the awfull truth (A little late I admit, but it's not being broadcasted in Germany). There was this church guy, telling the people to kill gay men. That's awfull. And he said that he was protected under freedom of speech. Is that right? No, the rest of the constitutional rights, including the right to live have a higher priority then his freedom of speech.
This gets more complicated every day, but from my point of view, the constitution states that you are not allowed to use your freedom of speech to tell other people to do unconstitutional things. Like murder. In other words, Bush, shut up!

[Tixx]

Originally posted by filegrabber
What about this one (War Hero)- http://www.handango.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=1&jid=EDB8CFAB81FA51D3AX796CCBF59D7EX1&productId=65558&optionId=1_1_2&productType=2&catalog=1&txtSearch=war+hero&sectionId=0&platformId=1

Funny how PalmGear and Handango removed a free application called 'Stop The War' which just had a few images in it but are happy to post these types of games.

This should not turn into an argument about the war etc. but I think PalmGear and Handango are employing double standards (not to mention removing freedom of speech)- I guess they find it easier to remove programs which don't make them any money:)

Double standards...part of the hypocrisy.

[exiii]

Originally posted by filegrabber
Funny how PalmGear and Handango removed a free application called 'Stop The War' which just had a few images in it but are happy to post these types of games.

Well, I guess the double standard issue depend on exactly what their standards are. I don't know what kind of images were in this 'Stop The War' app, but that might have something to do with it. I also don't know what kind of graphics are in this war games - I'm not really into these games on my palm. But there seems to be a huge difference between showing actual dead people and cartoon ones though.

It could just be that he (edit: Palmgear, Handango) got enough complaints about a particular program or developer, and for fear of pissing of his customers decided to no longer carry the product(s).

And as far as 'freedom of speech' applying to what products a merchant decides to carry: that right does not exist for anybody. It's at the merchant's sole discresion as to what products he want's to offer using whatever basis he chooses (however warped his sense of logic).

My whole point in this is that
1) though this show of blatant profiteering is dispicable,
2) it is still the developer's right to create any type of app he desires,
3) it is then the right of the reseller to choose if he wants to carry the product,
4) just as it is then our right to purchase (or not purchase) the product.
5) It is also then our right to choose to complain, and try to change anyone's mind that was involved in the development-to-purchase process.

[exiii]

Personally, I think games that so blatantly rob from current events lack a certain creativity (either in the production or the promotion aspect), and I'll show my dissatisfaction simply by purchasing something else.

[hansschmucker]

Good point, but I have to add a little to this.

While the publisher has the right to remove whatever he wants, he has NOT the right to add whatever he wants. He MUST stay within legal boundaries. And what many of these war-games do would count as ... how to say that in English ... when you ask somebody to kill somebody else because of ethnic reasons ... Well, maybe somebody can post the exact term, but you get my point. Well, whenever you ask people to do something illegal, you're acting illegal as well (at least in Germany).

Bad taste is not always legal.

[BenT]

Well hanss....we will agree to disagree when it comes to politics (I wont type all my reasons ect...). Part of what makes us free, is the ability to believe what and who we want. And I myself (unlike a very large amount of people I will admit) have great respect for peoples opinions....even when they are different from mine!

However, this is a game forum. So about this game.....its bad. nuff said. :D

[exiii]

hansschmucker:

I'm a bit confused about what illegal act you think the developer is commiting. Do you think he is telling people who buy his game to go out and kill Iraqis?

Though I'm not very impressed with this developer, I still think he fell a bit short of doing that.

[Zork]

BenT,

this isnt bout freemdom at all. The soldiers at Iraq murdered and still mrudering the people of Iraq, just so that the US administration get access to the third largest oil ressources worldwide. Its that easy.
And not there wont be freedom for the people of Iraq under a US military regime and that wont change when this regime get lost, cause then the Iraqi economy is destroyed by US companies, so it wont matter anymore whom is part of the governmet at Iraq.

BTW Hansschmucker, I would limit that to only benefit the victims at Iraq, cause noone forced the murders of the US army to move to Iraq and bein killed there by defense forces.

[tsuribito]

@ Hans
Were you looking for: "incitement of the masses" ("Volksverhetzung") ?

But I would say it is more war glorification in this case.

But as said: The game sucks . Case closed

[Pen-Pen]

Originally posted by Zork
BenT,

this isnt bout freemdom at all. The soldiers at Iraq murdered and still mrudering the people of Iraq, just so that the US administration get access to the third largest oil ressources worldwide. Its that easy.
And not there wont be freedom for the people of Iraq under a US military regime and that wont change when this regime get lost, cause then the Iraqi economy is destroyed by US companies, so it wont matter anymore whom is part of the governmet at Iraq.

BTW Hansschmucker, I would limit that to only benefit the victims at Iraq, cause noone forced the murders of the US army to move to Iraq and bein killed there by defense forces.

I don't agree with you. American soldiers are not murderers, they just obey to an order, the true murderers are the one who decide to go to war and those who give the orders.

I'm not totaly against this war, I'm against it because The American administration go throught the UN, and made this "peace" admnistration obsolete, and all the wars (and thus deaths) which led to the creation of the United Nations were done for nothing. And I have a question, there are many countries who have massive weapons of destruction, why the US doesn't want to go to war against them?

I'm for this war because Saddam Hussein is a dangerous criminal who act like a mad god in Iraq. Not because the US was in danger, but because the Iraqi were in danger.

[BenT]

Zork - I have no idea where you get your info or what proof you have. And I dont think you have an idea either. But again....not getting into it!

[Zork]

Pen-Pen, thsi war isnt bout the people of Iraq. Bush dont give a **** bout them. One dictator is removed and another one, again (again cause Husseins coup were also possible only with the support of the US adminstration then) supported by the Us adminstration would be installed. But this time the people of Iraq wont get any money for their natural ressources at all, cause its part of the post war phase that the complete iraqi economy would be overcome by US companies (they didnt founded USAid for nothing).

[BenT]

LOL how much rock have you been smoking? What are you basing this info on? Anyway.....ADMIN please delete this thread. This is a "Clie Games" forum....not an anti government forum for people to spread anti american views.

[Tixx]

Originally posted by BenT
LOL how much rock have you been smoking? What are you basing this info on? Anyway.....ADMIN please delete this thread. This is a "Clie Games" forum....not an anti government forum for people to spread anti american views.

Weak cheap shot Ben. The "anti-American" and "anti-Government" rhetoric name calling is for those whom are unfamiliar and ignorant to what America stands for and its foundation. Might want to remove that flag avatar until you understand what that flag actually represents (our current administration seems unfamiliar with its meaning as well). You might not like it.:)

[BenT]

LOL you call my remark a "cheap shot" yet you throw in the American flag comment, and of course the comments that I myself am unfamiliar and ignorant as to what America is about.

First off, I wasnt implying that anyone particular was anti-american. I was stating that these views are not for this forum. However, you can stab at me all you want. You dont know me, or who I am, or what I do to support my country and community.

Last reply to this topic. It is not needed here in this forum.

[hansschmucker]

@tsuribito
"incitement of the masses" sounds like the term I was looking for. And no, I don't think in this case there would have been legal actions since
a)not important enough. It's unlikely that anyone in the BPJS ever gets to see this
b)Not graphical enough. I personaly find this a bad reason, but that's the way it it. A game that shows you how to kill chines, black people or some other ethnic group, just because they are not like you, is unlikely to get forbidden if it doesn't show you images. While a game where you shoot zombies will certainly be forbidden if it has good gfx. They value presentation over intention. It's sad, but that's the way it is.

@Pen-Pen
It's hard to tell if an individual soldier is a murderer, i.e likes killing. There are some, no doubt about it. But that's not the topic. Bush's the topic. Because he has destroied half a century of international relations because of some stupid oil. And about removing a dictator. Guess what the US has supported far more dictatorships since it was founded then democracies. And Bush has also destroied the only way to prove saddam husein a criminal? Does anybody at all think about that. Now that we have US troops in Iraq we will certainly find weapons, and if they don't, they will bring some along. So, how can we say which misiles are Saddam's and which are Bush's. That man is so .... arghhh!!!!
And so, how can the UN approve what Bush has done? If they don't then the UN will die, since right now we need American troops, I know that. And if they approve the Bush's actions??? Then everything that used to be democratic about the UN is gone.

@Zork
Support only Iraqi families? I don't know. While this is pretty much my political oppinion as well, I'm a bit old-fashioned. I think families and life in General should be supported everywhere. No money for weapons or whatever. But simply food and enough money for a decent life. Poor people are not neccessarily criminals. Give them a minimum to build up upon and there will be peace. If people hat realized that after WW1, there would have been a good chance of WW2 never happening

@BenT
He's right. History has clearly shown that the US prefers stable dictatorships over democracys as their successor.
And the deals for the "rebuilding" of Iraq have already been made as well, guess where 85% of all companies are from?

@BenT
Never, never, never, never mix up anti government with anti american. Cause this is what makes us europeans mad these days. If you disagree with your government say so, don't hide unter a blanket and say "but they need my support now". A government never needs support. They need constructive (underline that one) criticism. Tell them what's wrong and tell them that they'll loose your vote if they don't do better next time.


Anyway, this might be a game forum, but isn't the great thing about arguing that the topics can sometimes shift?

[BenT]

Hans you do make some very good points!

[hansschmucker]

Interisting typo, you spelled my name like the German word for "hate". Was that on intention? =)

About the flag thing. I honestly DON'T know what it means besides the stars representing the individual states. On the other hand I could tell you about where the German flag comes from, but that would be highly off-topic. And sorry for all the typos, but it's 3AM over here, and I'm just to lazy to spell check right now, or even read though my posts again.

[BenT]

LOL sry, no all fixed

[Tixx]

Originally posted by BenT
LOL you call my remark a "cheap shot" yet you throw in the American flag comment, and of course the comments that I myself am unfamiliar and ignorant as to what America is about.

First off, I wasnt implying that anyone particular was anti-american. I was stating that these views are not for this forum. However, you can stab at me all you want. You dont know me, or who I am, or what I do to support my country and community.

Last reply to this topic. It is not needed here in this forum.

Funny as hell:D*LOL* Just chill with the weak name calling cheap shots. Thanks.:) And FYI - you were implying someone or something was "anti-American" or I guess you're just are throwing hate rhetoric around simply to see your words on the monitor. <scratching head> *LOL*:D

No, I do not know you, who you are or what you do. Thanks for letting me know this as I never made such a claim:) What I do know my friend is that you throw around hate rhetoric now with utter disregard. The American flag comment is in no way rhetoric or hate. No person on this thread has shown themselves to be "anti-American" and you accuse them of such behavior. By this overly simplistic accusation I find that education on the flag, freedom and the constitution is needed here. That's all.

[exiii]

BenT:

don't mind Tixx. He loves to attack people and then cry foul when it comes back to him. He'll probably complain that you're singling him out and then complain that you're not adding to the discussion when you respond. And I bet he does the same to me.

Hans:

The majority of your points seem to be founded on emotion and lack any real substance, but I will agree with you on one thing: The UN is hurting. They are so dependent on the U.S. right now that all they can do when the U.S. decides to go it's own way is bicker and name-call in the background. The U.N. has lost any authority that it ever had for the rest of the world.

Pure speculation, but I'd say that even if all the countries in the world opposed the U.S. on one particular item, they still couldn't put together enough votes to do anything about it because they're too dependent on U.S. troops and cash.

This isn't the fault of the U.S. either. No more than Microsoft can be blamed for dominating their market.

[Tixx]

Originally posted by exiii
BenT:

don't mind Tixx. He loves to attack people and then cry foul when it comes back to him. He'll probably complain that you're singling him out and then complain that you're not adding to the discussion when you respond. And I bet he does the same to me.

Hans:

The majority of your points seem to be founded on emotion and lack any real substance, but I will agree with you on one thing: The UN is hurting. They are so dependent on the U.S. right now that all they can do when the U.S. decides to go it's own way is bicker and name-call in the background. The U.N. has lost any authority that it ever had for the rest of the world.

Pure speculation, but I'd say that even if all the countries in the world opposed the U.S. on one particular item, they still couldn't put together enough votes to do anything about it because they're too dependent on U.S. troops and cash.

This isn't the fault of the U.S. either. No more than Microsoft can be blamed for dominating their market.

Hey look, the little puppy that follows me around and nibbles at my heals is back:D How cute of you to stick up for Ben...ahwwwwwwww.

[exiii]

So glad you're not letting all that hate fester up inside of you. :D

Just let it all out son.

[Tixx]

Originally posted by exiii
So glad you're not letting all that hate fester up inside of you. :D

Just let it all out son.

Don't hate the player, hate the game:D

[hansschmucker]

Sidenote: I do not blame Microsoft for dominating the market but I blame them for abusing their position. And I do the same with Bush.

[hansschmucker]

exiii
The majority of your points seem to be founded on emotion and lack any real substance

/me scratches head. Of course it's founded on emotion. I'm a human being after all. About lacking substance: Give me a sentence you think is wrong and I will be glad to look into it and see if I am wrong or you are.

[Zork]

exii, the US destroyed the UNO, like the Third Reich destroyed the Völkerbund, cause both countries were or are world powers which dont give a damn bout the opinion of other countries.
So dont tell here that anyone rely on US troops. Its simply the US administration which kills anyone which doesnt comply with their requests.
And bout MS : They are completely responsible for the destruction of the PC market. W/o them misusing their monopoly illegally (as alrady granted by a few dozen trials) the PC market would be still alive and vivid.

[hansschmucker]

I'm afraid it isn't that easy. The UN currently relies on US money and troops. (Side note: did you know the US is always late with payments, to show the UN how much it depends on them). That's a problem. (Luckily we don't have that problem on the PC market, since nobody actually depends on Microsoft anymore. So there might be a slight chance that Linux takes over desktop PCs as well. Not today, not tomorrow. But maybe in 10 or 15 years).

Anyway, the UN really needs US money for now and that's the whole problem. How can independent group rely so much on a single country?
Hopefully the EU will come to realize that one day and try to get things sorted out, so that we have about the same costs per-citizen everywhere. Because otherwise the UN will never have real power. Best would be a tax that every state has to collect from every citizen. Or they will get kicked out. So that the UN could be totally independent from local governments.

[hansschmucker]

Zork, BTW the Völkerbund was never as important as the UN. The problem was more that NaziGermany violated the treaty of Versaille by leaving. It was a first test to find out how much they could do before anybody interferes.

[exiii]

Do I really even need to argue? You guys are fighting each other.:D

About lacking substance: Give me a sentence you think is wrong and I will be glad to look into it and see if I am wrong or you are.

OK. I believe you implied that the publisher of Ara-Que is telling people to kill Iraqis:

Well, whenever you ask people to do something illegal, you're acting illegal as well (at least in Germany).

Bad taste is not always legal.I maintain that this moron indeed has bad taste, but that he is NOT telling people to kill real-world Iraqis.

Bad taste is not always ILLEGAL either (in any sane country).

Just curious, but what do you think of the game Castle Wolfenstein? One might argue that all the Nazi's in the game are German and therefore the developer is telling the players to kill Germans.

[Tixx]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
Of course it's founded on emotion. I'm a human being after all. About lacking substance: Give me a sentence you think is wrong and I will be glad to look into it and see if I am wrong or you are.

<psst> If you look at exiii's posts they have not a drop of real substance themselves, only emotion:) Funny he expects you to offer facts and substance, but offers none hmself*LOL*:D I call it hypocrisy. Wonder if the puppy will come out to nip at my heals after this one.:D

[hansschmucker]

->Refering to exiii's post. Tixx posted while I was typing...

It's on the index in Germany, and I think it deserves it's place there. Index in Germany means that you're not allowed to review in a public magazine, you're not allowed to show it in your shop window and you're only allowed to give it to sb before you've checked his ID and he's at least 18 years old.

And I never said bad taste is always illegal. I said it's not always legal and that's a big difference. I also said that stuff in this game would prabably not be enough for a place on the index.

You still didn't tell me a sentence that's wrong.

About fighting each other. I comment or criticise on anything that I think needs commenting. Doesn't matter who said it.
For example I still think that it wasn't the wisest of all decions the German chancelor has ever made, to say right from the beginning that he would never take part in any actions against Iraq. kills options. Eventhough it's my free oppinion, I think it was too early for that. It gave Saddam the possibility to devide the world into Bad Guys and Good Guys in his propaganda, the same for Bush who could do Propaganda on the same basis.

[exiii]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
About fighting each other. I comment or criticise on anything that I think needs commenting. Doesn't matter who said it.And I can respect you for that at least. I should have state that before. :)

But you still seemed to suggest that the Ara-Que game developer is trying to "incite the masses" into killing Iraqis. And that what he is doing is illegal. Are you now saying that what he is doing (has done) is, in fact, NOT ILLEGAL?

Until you explained it, I would have had NO IDEA what this statement meant: "I also said that stuff in this game would prabably not be enough for a place on the index. And for what it's worth, I don't think you can sell Castle Wolfenstein to minors in the U.S. either; but I'm somewhat unsure that this is a fact. (Question to anyone who knows: are video game ratings merely recommendations or law in the U.S.?)

Tixx, if you have nothing to say on the topic at hand, I'd nicely ask you to refrain from perpetuating hate.

[Tixx]

Originally posted by exiii


Tixx, if you have nothing to say on the topic at hand, I'd nicely ask you to refrain from perpetuating hate.

I perpetuated fact and simply pointed out your clear hyporcisy:) BTW - fact is not synonymous with hate. Here is a link to a dictionary which has synonyms that might help you in the future:)
http://www.merriam-webster.com


P.S. Glad you are starting to change your ways of following me around and nipping at my heals. Kinda nice:)
<my guess is it only happened because my previous post was looking for the usual nippy puppy:) Since I was looking for it that was a rebelious move by exiii to change the usual responses I bet it was real hard to do, wonder if it will last?>

[hansschmucker]

Originally posted by exiii

But you still seemed to suggest that the Ara-Que game developer is trying to "incite the masses" into killing Iraqis. And that what he is doing is illegal. Are you now saying that what he is doing (has done) is, in fact, NOT ILLEGAL?


I'm just not sure if it would be enough for the state step in. When you say "nigger" once, you are unlikely to be taken to court for that. But it's still racism. Which is illegal. Does this explanation make any sense to somebody who isn't into fuzzy logic? If it doesn't ask again, and I'll try to explain it once more. Damn, political discussion in a foreign language IS difficult, that's for sure.



Originally posted by exiii

Until you explained it, I would have had NO IDEA what this statement meant: "I also said that stuff in this game would prabably not be enough for a place on the index.


That's why I explained it to you ;)

[exiii]

Originally posted by hansschmucker
I'm just not sure if it would be enough for the state step in. When you say "nigger" once, you are unlikely to be taken to court for that. But it's still racism. Which is illegal. Does this explanation make any sense to somebody who isn't into fuzzy logic? If it doesn't ask again, and I'll try to explain it once more. Damn, political discussion in a foreign language IS difficult, that's for sure.It is impressive that you are able to make as many points as you do in a language that is not your native one. But just give the U.S. War Machine a few more years and everyone will be speaking English natively - translation problem solved. :D - a little sympathetic and dark humor - please don't take it out of context.

And I'd like to point out that in the U.S. being a racist is not illegal. Even voicing your hatred isn't illegal here. I can fear or hate Jews, Germans, Italians, Mormons, Catholics, Buddhists, ... even the current U.S. Administration ... whomever I want. I can spew hate from east to west and remain free as long as I don't break any written laws in the process. BTW, I don't hate any of those groups. I'm just making a point. And I was under the impression that Germany did away with the Thought Police as well when the country was reunited. Am I mistaken?

BTW: isn't it cool that now the Iraqis themselves are allowed to protest and demonstrate during a meeting of Iraqi national leaders! Do you think that would have happened a month ago with Saddam in power. If they weren't ready for democracy before Saddam came to power, they're ready for it now. Funny how a dictatorship will do that to people.

[hansschmucker]

No, it is illegal in Germany to be a racist. Saying that you are superior to others is against a constitution which basically states that all people are equal. Of course you won't get into prison for saying that this turkish guy is an *******. But you will for saying that all turkish guys are *******s and that the German people has to kill all of them (Sadly, there are still those who haven't learned from WW2 Not many. But even if it's 1 in 200. They stick out). Politicans are a different topic. They are a bit like "public property" in Germany. Everything they do as Chancelor for example can be commented, publicised or whatever, as long as no private stuff is involved (People over here couldn't understand what was all the fuzz about Clinton and Lewinsky. So they had an affair. Great. What do I care about it? Has nothing to do with his job. Next topic)