FAT16 and 2 GB SD card - it should work!

[vajera]

1. According to http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/partSizes-c.html maximum FAT16 size is 2,147,123,200 bytes = 1,9997 GBytes (cluster size 32 KB).

2. Since every HDD/Flash manufacturer does the trick with 1 KB = 1000 Bytes (not 1024 as used above), "2 GB" card is in fact 1,8626 GB in size.

3. In total = FAT16 is enough for formating and using 2GB card! (of course 32 KB cluster is a bit of waste of space).

It was theory - I don't have any 2GB card to try - but can anybody comment it?

Greetings

Lucas

[Legodude522]

It works anyway. Fat16 is limited to 2gb. It cannot go higher than 2gb. Some Palms may not support going that high though just for lack of supporting it. Fat32 supports 4gb SD cards. Fat16 supports 2gb SD cards and below.

[vajera]

But there were comments on different forums (I even seen one by Dmitry) saying that only cards below 2GB are supported ?!

[Legodude522]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAT16
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a267/Legodude522/f54c9386.png

[vajera]

Ok, this is what I've found, too. But does anybody use it in it's Palm? Does it work? How about space waste?

Edit: I've check my 1GB SD card - it's almost full (47 MB free) and chkdsk reported about 2 MB of wasted space (cluster size =16 KB). So if I double it (cluster=32 KB) and double once again (2GB card) it will result in about 8-10 MB of wasted space, which is acceptable price for not switching several cards everyday.

[newT3user]

MyT3 shows that my Sandisk 2GB SD with Fat(16?) reads 1936.8 MB, being just formatted by my XP desktop. (Of course, it didn't read Fat32 that I use with the LD.) I don't know about card speed or anything like that. The cards seems to work okay, though, with what I'm putting on it. Does that help any?

[dragonsgames]

A 2GB card can be formated with FAT16. Dmitry must have meant 2GB is the highest it can go or something ;)

[Cyker]

Well, if we're being really pedantic, the max size you can have with 32kB clusters and FAT16 is like, 1-byte short of a full 2GB, so technically he's correct :D

Unless you have a T|3, in which case you got screwed (Palm limited it to 1.5GB for some godsawful reason...)

[dragonsgames]

Well, if we're being really pedantic, the max size you can have with 32kB clusters and FAT16 is like, 1-byte short of a full 2GB, so technically he's correct :D
LOL, good thing 2GB aren't 2GB :rolleyes:

Unless you have a T|3, in which case you got screwed (Palm limited it to 1.5GB for some godsawful reason...)
That is too bad :( :( :( :mad:

[vajera]

Do you know where is the magic for 1.5 GB limit ?! 1.5 GB still requires 32 KB clusters so it's not a problem?!

[yorrick]

Do you know where is the magic for 1.5 GB limit ?! 1.5 GB still requires 32 KB clusters so it's not a problem?!

Theory may be fine, but we are talking about the real world here Palm has acknowledged that 2GB cards will not work on the T3. It is a stupid technical limitation.

I have a 2GB SD card and it won't work on my T3 - even formatting it was FAT16 or FAT32. If you really want to know why Palm limited the T3 to 1.5GB cards, ask them.

[newT3user]

Okay, I'm confused! As I wrote earlier the card info appl. on my T3 reads my 2GB card with fat16 as 1936.8MB. The delete function shows my card with 1.8G. If Palm limited cards to 1.5GB on the T3, why does mine show more than 1.5? I have nothing special on my T3. Some help, maybe? Thanks!

[vajera]

newT3user: do you have any problems with reading/writing to the card? Can you say which model of card do you have?

[newT3user]

Now that I have my LD, the T3 is being used primarily by my son for games and movies and music. I use a SanDisk 2.0 card that I formatted on the desktop with Fat(16?), not Fat32. I use the drive mode on my LD to write the movies, etc. on the card. No problems reading it. I don't know about the writing part, as I haven't done any input with the T3 since I got the 2GB card and the LD.

[Iamaboff]

Could be that the T3 can only format cards up to 1.5GB but it can read a 2GB card that has been formatted w/ FAT 16 on your computer.

I'm just guessing though. ;)

[potter]

Theory: Palm OS's memory management has limitations such that the size of the largest single chunk of memory that can be allocated is just shy of 64k (64 * 1024 - something small). Therefore, Palm OS cannot support FAT16 with 64k clusters (needed for 2G through 4G partitions), nor can it support a full 2G partition but something just shy of it.

Now this small delta, may be different depending on what code we are talking about. The Card Info program, being a Palm OS application, would be hit by the full Palm OS limitations, and thus when trying to build the FAT table in memory it cannot use the full 64k. However, the IO functions uses to read and write files would be ARM code, a part of the OS, and would not necessarily have this limit, and thus could handle a full 64k FAT.

Therefore, you might be right. The T3 might not fully support a 2G card (it cannot format it) but can still use it.

[newT3user]

Okay... I think I got it... I'm not sure, though. At least it (the 2GB Card) works on the T3. I'll still take the LD and eventually get a 4GB for it. No more missing screws!

[yorrick]

<sigh> Why must you keep on picking on this dead carcass?!
(1) Any card formatted as FAT32 will not be read by a T3

(2) 2GB card formatted to FAT16 can be read by a T3, but the SD card cannot be written to or delete files via the T3

(3) This is a known issue that PalmOne (now Palm) has deliberately crippled the T3 by using FAT16 and not FAT32. God knows why when everyone was already using FAT32 when the T3 was released (aside from NTFS...)
No amount of digital data theory can mitigate or explain why a T3 should be able to read a 2GB card formatted as FAT16. The maximum SD capacity is a 1.5GB for the T3.

... and yes - I have verified all of this with a 2GB SD card on my T3.

[newT3user]

You're right. It doesn't matter. I'll just enjoy having my son use the 2GB sd card filled! with his games and music and movies on my T3.

[jolo]

I think what is missing from this, is how newT3user formatted his 2gb SD card.

newT3user did a windows format as FAT, not FAT16. newT3user, is that correct ? newT3user, in Windows, you formatted your SD card as FAT, not FAT16, is that forrect ?

From what I have read from several people on a review formum at newegg.com in their comments on using a their 2gb card on their T3s, what that they had to format their SD card in windows at FAT, not FAT16.


newT3user Would you mind responding to my quote ?


Now that I have my LD, the T3 is being used primarily by my son for games and movies and music. I use a SanDisk 2.0 card that I formatted on the desktop with Fat(16?), not Fat32. I use the drive mode on my LD to write the movies, etc. on the card. No problems reading it. I don't know about the writing part, as I haven't done any input with the T3 since I got the 2GB card and the LD.

[newT3user]

Yep, I formatted the 2GB card on my desktop with FAT, not Fat 16 (Which begs the question, what's the difference? I don't honestly know!), then using Drive Mode (LD) to input on the card. So that's the solution, huh? I just know I haven't had any problems on my T3.

[applejosh]

I don't believe there is a difference in this sense. FAT is just the generic name used for that type of file system (variants include FAT12, FAT16, FAT32, and whatever the 64KB cluster sized FAT used by NT4). When formatting, if you choose FAT (not FAT32), then the OS will either use FAT12 (for very small disks ~ 16MB or less) or FAT16 (up to 2GB as previosuly discussed ad nauseum) depending on the size of the medium. From what I understand, this is automatic and not configurable in Windows or DOS. When you format something as FAT, the OS will determine whether to format it using 12bit pointers (FAT12) or 16bit pointers (FAT16).

Comparing FAT and FAT16 is like comparing "car" and "Chevy" - one is a subset of the other.

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/fileFAT-c.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/file/partSizes.html

Hopefully, we can consider this dead horse beaten enough.

[jolo]

You are exactly correct about the formatting as FAT.

However, in discussing specifically the Palm and more specifically the Tungsten T3, I have read from those users who have purchased a Adata 2gb SD card that formating as FAT16 will not fork. Formatting as FAT will work.
What I mean by that, it get the Tungsten T3 (Palm OS 5.2x) OS to work with it.

WHY ???? I have no idea. This also allowed the card to be compatible or formated with their digital camera and Tungsten T3.

Sorry, but there are some things that cannot be figured out logically with the Palm, especially with the SD cards, connectivity with the outside world, etc. This is due to some of the sloppiness on Palm Inc's end and their refusal to have downloadable driver, software of firmware fixes, unless heavily pressured.

I will let you know from some experiments myself about it. There are a couple of methods that should work, I will see which is best for me.

We can all blame the thieving CEO of Palm for all of the aggrevation on this.

I will tell you that I purchased my 1gb SD card when I got my first T3, a while back.
Palm said on their web site that the T3 would support up to 512mb at the time and by no coincidence, they only sold up to a 512mb card on the PalmStore.

I did have some issues with instability when I first got it. But the vendor sent me a post from a forum that has made it as solid as a rock for about a year. It was to reformat it outside of Palm.

On the Palm website, it also recommends for LifeDrive users to format their large capacity SD cards outside of the Palm. Digital camera or whatever. They reason is that if the SD card was formated via the Palm format, it would not be compatible with anything else but that LifeDrive. But a format outside of the Palm would allow compatibility with the FAT32 driver in the LifeDrive and other equipment that use SD cards.

Basically there is a issue with the File Manager software in the LifeDrive. I do not know if it was fixed. Here is an exact quote from the Palm support site.

"What formats can a LifeDrive device read?
The LifeDrive device can read all three formats (FAT12, FAT16, FAT32). This means you can format an expansion card in almost any other device, and the LifeDrive device will be able to understand it.

Can I pick which format to use with a card?
No. The LifeDrive device automatically chooses the format to use for a particular card, based on its size.

If you're using a digital camera or other accessory that requires expansion cards to be in a particular format, you should use your digital camera to format expansion cards. This ensures the card is formatted with a file system your camera can understand. If you use your mobile manager to format the card, it might be formatted with a file system that is not compatible with your camera.

Refer to your camera's documentation to learn how to format an inserted expansion card."

Jon


Jon

I don't believe there is a difference in this sense. FAT is just the generic name used for that type of file system (variants include FAT12, FAT16, FAT32, and whatever the 64KB cluster sized FAT used by NT4). When formatting, if you choose FAT (not FAT32), then the OS will either use FAT12 (for very small disks ~ 16MB or less) or FAT16 (up to 2GB as previosuly discussed ad nauseum) depending on the size of the medium. From what I understand, this is automatic and not configurable in Windows or DOS. When you format something as FAT, the OS will determine whether to format it using 12bit pointers (FAT12) or 16bit pointers (FAT16).

Comparing FAT and FAT16 is like comparing "car" and "Chevy" - one is a subset of the other.

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/fileFAT-c.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/file/partSizes.html

Hopefully, we can consider this dead horse beaten enough.

[jolo]

yorrick,
Thanks for the great post !!

I think that you summarized things wonderfully.

I also think that point 3 is essential and is very important to realize, remember and letting Palm Inc know whenever there is an opportunity.
So many give "logical excused" and the Palm apologists help perpetuate their treatment of customers.
Palm Inc is a member of the Secure Digital (SD) association, so that they would have privey to any advanced knowledge as well as information on how to easily post a appropriate FAT32 driver.
The excuse from the Palm web site and from some erroneous support emails I received was that



<sigh> Why must you keep on picking on this dead carcass?!
(1) Any card formatted as FAT32 will not be read by a T3

(2) 2GB card formatted to FAT16 can be read by a T3, but the SD card cannot be written to or delete files via the T3

(3) This is a known issue that PalmOne (now Palm) has deliberately crippled the T3 by using FAT16 and not FAT32. God knows why when everyone was already using FAT32 when the T3 was released (aside from NTFS...)
No amount of digital data theory can mitigate or explain why a T3 should be able to read a 2GB card formatted as FAT16. The maximum SD capacity is a 1.5GB for the T3.

... and yes - I have verified all of this with a 2GB SD card on my T3.
most of the SD cards are not SD compliant and that they do not have the time to test every single SD card. Also, some nonsense about how technology is moving so fast, blah, blah, blah. Bold face lies. Sometimes a Palm Inc person will post some Palm apology nonsense, then quickly scatter away when the facts are mentioned.

[applejosh]

However, in discussing specifically the Palm and more specifically the Tungsten T3, I have read from those users who have purchased a Adata 2gb SD card that formating as FAT16 will not fork. Formatting as FAT will work.


I have no idea what the heck they are talking about. If you were to format something that large as "FAT" then you're either going to format it FAT16 or FAT32 (of which the latter we know won't work without a degree of hacked driver support). So either they're mis-speaking, or have some sort of vernacular that I'm not catching on to.